The diesel controversy

[Mark RandParticipant @markrand96270]

Electric cars will make sense when we have predominantly nuclear, wind and solar power. Currently the best performance you can get from a power station is about 50% efficiency for combined cycle gas and steam turbines. Current designs are low NOx due to multi-stage combustion controlling peak temperatures, but it's still not competitive with a diesel car. Lots of nuclear power would be wonderful if we could educate Joe Public on the safety and cost benefits.

Mark (34 years years in a steam turbine company in Rugby)…

[Bob Brown 1Participant @bobbrown1]

Renewables in their current forms have their limitations and until some form of large storage is effective will remain so, as it stands we need other sources of power generation fossil fuel or nuclear for the times there is little wind and night time. Most of the time cars will be charged over night unless all car parks have recharge points never mind the load on the national grid. It is estimated that by 2050 electric vehicles could add an addition 30% load to the current power generation e.g. 86Gw

[Bob JeppParticipant @bobjepp]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 03/05/2017 21:26:43:

Proper testing of diesel cars in the answer, it will mean they bring in decent particulate filters and adblue – but if they siphon off a fraction of the budget for heated steering wheels and 'apps on your dashboard'…

Trying to decide what vehicle to go for – it seems that petrol is more expensive to run and higher carbon emissions, diesel cheaper to run ( it seems that recently designed vehicles have particulate filters and adblue ) and hybrid cars are extremely expensive and nowhere near as economical as the manufacturers claim.

Quite agree about the apps – can you believe that you need a smartphone app to fold down the rear seats in a Land Rover – BUT – heated steering wheels – the best thing since sliced bread ( had mine on tonight driving back from Tesco's ) !

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

Well well well. This thread is now entering the realm of common sense

"what if electric cars had had 120 years of development"

The car was all about cash, and literally cashed in on the freedom of movement it gave to millions, ultimately resulting in 70% fuel tax and various other taxes and it created a huge market for the waste byproducts of the oil cracking industry, petrol and diesel (something like 6 gal of diesel and 18 gal of petrol per 40 gallon barrel)

Exxon BP etc etc etc, worth tens of billions now

Beechings was one casualty and there have been others.

The best solution is not always the one chosen, because the best solution often doesn't make enough money

Edited By Ady1 on 04/05/2017 01:04:12

[Russell EberhardtParticipant @russelleberhardt48058]

Posted by Mark Rand on 03/05/2017 23:21:12:

Electric cars will make sense when we have predominantly nuclear, wind and solar power. Currently the best performance you can get from a power station is about 50% efficiency for combined cycle gas and steam turbines. Current designs are low NOx due to multi-stage combustion controlling peak temperatures, but it's still not competitive with a diesel car. Lots of nuclear power would be wonderful if we could educate Joe Public on the safety and cost benefits.

Mark (34 years years in a steam turbine company in Rugby)…

The overall efficiency will be even lower than 50% when you factor in the transmission loss, the loss of energy in the charge/discharge cycle of the battery, and the electric motor efficiency. Compare to the efficiency of car diesel engines.

From the global warming perspective, here in France with the high level of nuclear power generation electric cars might make sense. In the UK with the reliance on fossil fuel for power I doubt if it does. Using the fossil fuel where the energy is needed is probably better.

Russell.

[Antony PowellParticipant @antonypowell28169]

Diesel's have been branded as dirty and producers of Nitrogen Oxides (poisons)

Diesels are no good for local journeys as the diesel particulate filters (DPF) block up, so unless you are a regular motorway user there out.

Diesel's cost more to repair, when something goes wrong it's usually a lot more expensive to fix

 

Renault have announced that the will produce no more diesel cars after 2020

Holland intends to ban new internal combustion powered Petrol / Diesel powered vehicles from 2024

 

These days the only way forward is hybrid, Petrol engine with electric power.

With fully electric in the future being the norm as battery's improve

they cost more initially but cost less to run, maintain, low road tax, park, no congestion charges

 

I run an old Toyota Prius as a company test vehicle, paid £300 for it on ebay cost £100 to mot it & it does 55+ mpg around town and £20 a year road tax

The new Teslar car can do up to 400 miles on single a charge & out accelerate a Ferrari

 

from a diesel repairer of 34 years with level 4 hybrid / electric training (the highest available)

Tony

 

 

 

Edited By Antony Powell on 04/05/2017 09:44:21

Edited By Antony Powell on 04/05/2017 09:47:53

Edited By Antony Powell on 04/05/2017 09:51:37

[Antony PowellParticipant @antonypowell28169]

Lithium battery's and fire have one major problem……

they generate their own oxygen and promote their own fire

Tony

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

If I remember correctly the problem with diesel engines in cars is that the cylinders are too small to complete combustion. A large engine, as fitted to a ship, has huge cylinders and runs at low rpm. It's relatively easy to get good air/fuel mixing and plenty of time for the oil, and partial combustion products, to burn more completely,

I think it was Ricardo who first produced the first practical diesel engine small enough to fit a lorry. He added a swirl chamber that forced the combustion deeper into the cylinder, and got more oxygen to the oil.

A car engine has small cylinders and it develops power by turning at high rpm. It seems that the various clever improvements since Ricardo have not succeeded in making a small engine that doesn't leave Nitrogen Oxides and Carbon Particulates in the exhaust.

The latest moves to restrict diesel cars are because the current Government has been successfully prosecuted twice. First for failing to meet emission targets, and then a year later for failing to do anything about the first judgement. Very embarrassing.

Nitrogen Oxides are the most dangerous pollutant, and are estimated to cause 20,000 to 40,000 deaths per year in the UK. There is also concern that particulates are not decreasing as fast as they they should be. Possibly this is down to engines being configured to pass tests rather than reduce emissions in the real world.

Those Nitrogen Oxides don't kill people in an obvious way. If just standing next to a diesel car bumped you off, then there would be no controversy. What actually happens is that Nitrogen Oxides in the air makes other lung / heart conditions much, much worse. It kills sick people who would otherwise have survived. As we don't know the victims personally, it's very easy to dismiss the statistics and forget that these are real people with grieving relatives.

As others have said, the big problem with electric vehicles is the battery. Everything else about electric out-performs Internal Combustion. They are faster, cheaper to make, simpler, cleaner, and more efficient. Apart from the power source! My fortune would be made if only I could invent a cheap, safe, high-capacity secondary battery good for 300 miles that can fully recharged in 5 minutes.

Dave

Typos!

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 04/05/2017 11:36:43

[Antony PowellParticipant @antonypowell28169]

Battery capacity, Battery weight and recharge time are the three biggest issues, all thee are improving at a very fast rate.

Teslar are the current leaders with the fastest, furthest distance and also shortest recharge times

I can't see it being that long before the others catch up and things improve again

Driving a silent car is Weird !!

and you really need to be on your guard with pedestrians especially in the supermarket car park

tony

Edited By Antony Powell on 04/05/2017 11:43:45

[Bob Brown 1Participant @bobbrown1]

While Teslar may boast furthest but at close to $100,000 not cheap on the other hand the Chevrolet Bolt EV offers a range of 238 miles with a price under $40,000. Still considerably more expensive than a diesel/petrol and if your talking your own wallet that's a lot of fossil fuel you could buy with the difference.

[Antony PowellParticipant @antonypowell28169]

even a cheap car these days is around £20,000

and

road tax £300 pa (average)

parking charges £10 day (average city)( 250 days = 2500)

congestion charges £12.50 per day (London) (250 days = £3125) other city's are looking to charge

Fuel £6.00 gallon for 40 miles (average) (20000 miles a year = £3000)

 

so after 1 year that's £8925 = 11.2 years for the Tesla or 4.48 for the Chevrolet Bolt

or 8.96 years for the Tesla or 2.24 years for the Bolt if you take of a normal car off

There are much cheaper options for electric vehicles in the UK there is a Nissan for £200 a month (with the grant off) at my local dealer so that's 8925 / 12 = 743.75 which is a big saving over say five years (to allow for any charging costs) and you still have the car at the end of it, even without the congestion charge your still in profit.

taking wear and tear and maintenance on all vehicles as an equal cost for this discussion

So it's not as expensive as you first think !!

Tony

 

Edited By Antony Powell on 04/05/2017 13:24:49

Edited By Antony Powell on 04/05/2017 13:26:12

Edited By Antony Powell on 04/05/2017 13:27:39

[Antony PowellParticipant @antonypowell28169]

Nissan™ LEAF 30 kWh – 155 mile range, from £20,790 OTR‎

 

plus the battery rental cost of £93 a month thats £1116 per year 

but you can also qualify for a grant for buying 100% electric of between £2550 and £4500

Tony

Edited By Antony Powell on 04/05/2017 13:22:16

[Bob Brown 1Participant @bobbrown1]

Electricity isn't free for most so you need to factor that in as well

Edited By Bob Brown 1 on 04/05/2017 13:35:40

[Bob Brown 1Participant @bobbrown1]

You can also bet as the take up of electric increases the government is not going to allow its self to lose out on the major revenue stream of fossil fuel cars (£40 billion/year) so something will change.

[Antony PowellParticipant @antonypowell28169]

Bob

If you read what i wrote I already have taken charging into account…

yes you need to get in before they do but that applies to all offers / grants

tony

[MWParticipant @mw27036]

Lets try and shake this up a little, because I get a little tired of hearing about the same technologies over and over again. What about other options?

It's like either petrol, diesel, electric, hydrogen if it gets slightly whackier but that's about it. There must be SOMETHING else that nobody has thought of yet.

Like, it's a very flawed concept I know, but what if you could find a way of storing and suspending kinetic energy in a vehicle kind of like those cars you had as a kid where you wind them backwards and they go forward on the energy of the circular spring?

That's just an example but feel free to say anything, just, anything i'm tired of the same alternative options being placed infront of people like a binary decision.

Michael W

[Martin 100Participant @martin100]

Posted by Mark Rand on 03/05/2017 19:02:06:

I think I must agree with Mick's comment above. There do seem to be a few predjuces being viewed on this thread. Just a few points:-

1. Many modern car diesels use urea injection (Adblue) as well as pretty much all commercial diesels. This implies that they have NOx reducing catalyists, which use the ammonia formed by the dissulution of the urea to reduce the NOx to N2 and H2O. Adding extra urea is simple, cheap and isn't needed often. It's no more a maintenance issue than keeping the tyres inflated.

Euro 6 yes, but prior to that cars often have sealed tanks or bags of Eolys fluid / DPX42 fitted at the factory to assist with DPF regeneration and only in some case do they have the facility for the end user to refill the additive. Many require the intervention of the dealer or a specialist, some require entire additive tank replacement. That involves cost that many owners somehow can't bring themselves to bear, they bought a diesel to save fuel costs and can't contemplate paying anything to maintain the emissions systems on their vehicle.

A whole clandestine industry thus exists around DPF bypass, but with the visual presence now checked at MOT time it requires internal pipework leaving the casing substantially and software mods to remove detection of said bodge.

The end result is a vehicle producing more NOx and the same level of particulates as a pre-common rail diesel from 20+ years ago, because they are operating at significantly higher cylinder temperatures and pressures, the particulates are just dumped into the lungs of anyone on the vicinity, be it other car users, cyclists, pedestrians and those living next to roads, i.e. everyone. Those buying secondhand may be oblivious to the bodge, those owners actually commissioning the work and carrying it out are nothing but crooks. I'd jail them all.

The lack of effective testing for diesels at MOT time means bypassed DPF's and high NOx from a lack of additive is in most cases not even detected.

In-service exhaust emission standards for road vehicles

200+ pages of speciifc requirements for petrol emissons, listed model by model, and just one generic page for diesels (table 3 page 14, blink and you'll miss it)

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Michael-w on 04/05/2017 14:10:28:

Lets try and shake this up a little, because I get a little tired of hearing about the same technologies over and over again. What about other options?

[richardandtracyParticipant @richardandtracy]

On the plus side: Recyclable, few emissions, relies on solar power for energy (by way of grass). Creates organic fertiliser.

On the minus side: Answers back. Has a mind of its own.

Regards,

Richard.

[MWParticipant @mw27036]

Posted by richardandtracy on 04/05/2017 15:04:06:

On the plus side: Recyclable, few emissions, relies on solar power for energy (by way of grass). Creates organic fertiliser.

On the minus side: Answers back. Has a mind of its own.

Regards,

Richard.

They also get tired and fed up just like everybody else does ​

Michael W

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by richardandtracy on 04/05/2017 15:04:06:

On the plus side: Recyclable, few emissions, relies on solar power for energy (by way of grass). Creates organic fertiliser.

On the minus side: Answers back. Has a mind of its own.

Regards,

Richard.

Reminds me of the etiquette to be followed when one the animals farts. The gentleman on the right says to the lady driver, "I do beg your pardon Ma'am". She replies "No need to apologise, I thought it was the horse."

[Roderick JenkinsParticipant @roderickjenkins93242]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 04/05/2017 15:19:30:

Reminds me of the etiquette to be followed when one the animals farts. The gentleman on the right says to the lady driver, "I do beg your pardon Ma'am". She replies "No need to apologise, I thought it was the horse."

Methane: 84 times more potent than CO2 as a greenhouse gas

Can't win. My new car will be a euro6 diesel. I'm waiting for Mr Fusion ( though probably not in a Delorean)

Rod

[Bob Brown 1Participant @bobbrown1]

It gets interesting when you look at comparisons on how far dirty old diesel cars have come and how well they now compare to petrol

 

Euro emissions standards for diesel cars

Euro standard	Date	CO	NOx	PM
Euro 1	July 1992	2.72	–	0.14
Euro 2	January 1996	1.0	–	0.08
Euro 3	January 2000	0.64	0.50	0.05
Euro 4	January 2005	0.50	0.25	0.025
Euro 5a	September 2009	0.50	0.180	0.005
Euro 6	September 2014	0.50	0.080	0.005

 

Euro emissions standards for petrol cars

Euro standard	Date	CO	NOx	PM
Euro 1	July 1992	2.72	–	–
Euro 2	January 1996	2.2	–	–
Euro 3	January 2000	2.3	0.15	–
Euro 4	January 2005	1.0	0.08	–
Euro 5	September 2009	1.0	0.060	0.005
Euro 6	September 2014	1.0	0.060	0.005

Edited By Bob Brown 1 on 04/05/2017 16:01:36

[MWParticipant @mw27036]

Posted by Roderick Jenkins on 04/05/2017 15:53:23:

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 04/05/2017 15:19:30:

I'm waiting for Mr Fusion ( though probably not in a Delorean)

Rod

It would be extraordinary if they could sustain hydrogen fusion. But like others have said, millions spent and it seems perpetually 50 years away from perfection. The perfect counterargument has always been "Ah, but what if it did work". Indeed, it would be marvellous, but it seems impossible.

Michael W

[Steve WithnellParticipant @stevewithnell34426]

It's all bollocks really.

Steve

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