Strange German Lighter

[VicParticipant @vic]

The Germans are sometimes accused of over engineering stuff. Not sure about that, but this thing is however quite strange and doesn’t appear to be particularly well made. Quite a curiosity though isn’t it?

https://youtube.com/shorts/YGu0micDp4k?si=5eSZZ76YM_RgIxVn

 

[noel shelleyParticipant @noelshelley55608]

Rather neat ! Never seen caps used to initiate combustion. Noel.

[Speedy Builder5Participant @speedybuilder5]

Great “Boy’s Toy”.

[Dave HalfordParticipant @davehalford22513]

Trench art, looks remarkably like a re-purposed cartridge case.

[FulmenParticipant @fulmen]

It’s probably from the late 19. century, predating flints.

[bernard towersParticipant @bernardtowers37738]

Predating Flints??????

[Fulmen]

On Fulmen Said

It’s probably from the late 19. century, predating flints.

Mmmm what about all those 17th century muskets ?  🙂

[FulmenParticipant @fulmen]

I meant “flint” which is a ferrocerium alloy.

[Nigel Graham 2Participant @nigelgraham2]

Ingenious! “Trench art” more likely by genre rather than reality perhaps, though it may have been made as a “bunny” or “homer” in some military workshop.

Problem is, can you still buy those rolls of caps, made for toy guns?

[Dave Halford]

On Dave Halford Said:

Trench art, looks remarkably like a re-purposed cartridge case.

I can’t imagine it’s anything a frontline soldier would’ve made for use in the trenches – the snap and flash of the cap could’ve drawn the attention of every nearby enemy sniper, and I’d expect it’d be enormously difficult for the soldier even to obtain the rollcaps in theatre.

German military cartridge cases were generally rimless – it made weapon magazines and automatic feed systems easier to design – and it would take an impractical amount of work to make that out of, say, a 7,92x57mm Mauser case.

I think it’s a curiosity made for curiosity’s sake.  🙂

 

[FulmenParticipant @fulmen]

WWI trenches should have been mostly safe from sniper fire as long as you didn’t peek over the brim.

As for the caps they were introduced around 1850 for percussion guns, but I don’t know if this one was made for those or the newer toy caps. I suspect the original was a bit more powerful.

[Mick B1]

On Mick B1 Said:

On Dave Halford Said:

Trench art, looks remarkably like a re-purposed cartridge case.

I can’t imagine it’s anything a frontline soldier would’ve made for use in the trenches – the snap and flash of the cap could’ve drawn the attention of every nearby enemy sniper, and I’d expect it’d be enormously difficult for the soldier even to obtain the rollcaps in theatre.

German military cartridge cases were generally rimless – it made weapon magazines and automatic feed systems easier to design – and it would take an impractical amount of work to make that out of, say, a 7,92x57mm Mauser case.

I think it’s a curiosity made for curiosity’s sake.  🙂

 

I agree, but it might be Trench Art.   I have a bullet converted into a penknife by a Great Uncle killed on the Western front a few months before the armistice.

The bullet he converted had me going, because it’s not British, German, Russian, Italian, Austrian or any of the other protagonists.   After much digging I identified it as Japanese! They provided Arisaka rifles to the British for training purposes when Lee Enfields were in short supply.   I’m confident my example of Trench Art wasn’t made in the front line, it was made in a training camp.   I suspect most trench art is similar, made behind the lines, maybe in a capable workshop.

Dave

 

 

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Production lighter, see the very similar Koehler one towards the bottom of this page of pre flint lighters that used “caps”. Click the little icon to see the Patent

[Dave HalfordParticipant @davehalford22513]

Good find Jason

[JasonB]

On JasonB Said:

Production lighter, see the very similar Koehler one towards the bottom of this page of pre flint lighters that used “caps”. Click the little icon to see the Patent

What I noted about that example in comparison with Dave Halford’s earlier post was that the wick cap shown on that Koehler has a rim with a radiused relief resembling that used on French 8mm Lebel cartridge cases.

[FulmenParticipant @fulmen]

The presence of a rim-like feature does not automatically make it a casing. And a casing doesn’t automatically make it trench art.

[Fulmen]

On Fulmen Said:

The presence of a rim-like feature does not automatically make it a casing. And a casing doesn’t automatically make it trench art.

True, though it might. I agree with Fulmen, though.  It’s unlikely to be Trench Art, though a competent soldier with access to a military workshop might have imitated a commercial item, and if so a bullet is a good start.

Based on reading Jason’s link,  my feeling though is that the military resemblance isn’t a coincidence.  The lighter is based on two firearms technologies:

1. The roll of caps isn’t for toy guns, it’s for a common type of 19th Century firearm.   Cartridges took a long time to supplant older methods, and roll tape was probably widely available when the lighter was made.  A good choice until  pyrophoric flints were invented in 1906.
2. The brass case is made in the same way as a cartridge.  Probably Cartridge Brass repeatedly drawn and annealed to get from a blank to the finished shape.  Same process, and possibly the same machine.  Looks like a gun cartridge because it’s a close relative.

Dave

[JasonB]

On JasonB Said:

Production lighter, see the very similar Koehler one towards the bottom of this page of pre flint lighters that used “caps”. Click the little icon to see the Patent

Curiously enough … another patent by Megill, for a torch-style lighter, illustrates the cap-firing mechanism rather well

https://worldwide.espacenet.com/patent/search?q=pn%3DUS193535A

MichaelG.

[SillyOldDuffer]

On SillyOldDuffer Said:

…

1. The roll of caps isn’t for toy guns, it’s for a common type of 19th Century firearm.   Cartridges took a long time to supplant older methods, and roll tape was probably widely available when the lighter was made.  A good choice until  pyrophoric flints were invented in 1906.
2. The brass case is made in the same way as a cartridge.  Probably Cartridge Brass repeatedly drawn and annealed to get from a blank to the finished shape.  Same process, and possibly the same machine.  Looks like a gun cartridge because it’s a close relative.

Dave

I agree that roll caps for real firearms were a 19th century invention, but these Maynard caps had limited success and brief use in the American Civil War. Toy pistol caps of the sort shown in use for the lighter are modern and likely far less substantial than the ‘serious’ Maynard type. I don’t think modern roll caps would have much chance of firing a proper powder charge in a real live round.

In fact I tried this as a kid with a ‘Gambler’ spud gun loaded with a compressed silver foil bullet and a pinch of black powder out of a ‘Little Demon’ banger and individual round paper single toy pistol caps then sometimes available, which were themselves a lot bigger than the roll variety. It took 3 to 4 of these to fire the charge, and the setback broke the (diecast Mazak) hammer shaft when it did. 😀

How would a WW1 soldier have any hope of keeping the things dry in the endless frontline rain?

Here’s a US thing on the Maynard cap system:

[FulmenParticipant @fulmen]

To the extent that it resembles a cartridge I would say it’s closer to a rimfire.

As for the modern caps they are definitively purpose made for toys. They used to contain red phosphorous, but I’m sure they have better compounds today. Silver acetylide perhaps?

The Maynard caps used mercury fulminate which feels like an overkill for lighters. I wouldn’t be surprised if they made dedicated caps for these lighters.

[Author]

Posts