Speed camera

[David George 1Participant @davidgeorge1]

Near to where I live is a cross roads with traffic lights and pedestrian crossings and also there is a speed restriction which finnishes just after the pedestrian crossing. Just to complcate the set up there is a new speed camera which controls the crossing and checks speed across the traffic lights and a pedestrian crossing as well as a further distance of about 20 meters beyond the crossing to a 50MPH speed sign. If you cross the cross roads and the pedestrian crossing and see the 50MPH sign and excelerate BEFORE passing the speed sign you have been caught speeding like I was. There has been many thousands of motorists caught perhaps it should be made more available that you can be speeding untill you have passed the speed sign before accelerating.

David

[John HaineParticipant @johnhaine32865]

Surely it is clear that up to the 50 speed limit sign the previous limit, presumably 30 mph, applies?

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

A location would be informative for we idle commentators, David

Try this:

https://what3words.com/how-to-use-the-what3words-app

 

MichaelG.

[Speedy Builder5Participant @speedybuilder5]

Would you be reported for dangerous driving if you stamped on your brakes just before a reducing speed sign eg:-  You are travelling at 50mph in a 50 limit area and 10 feet before the 30 limit you stamp on your brakes sufficiently to reduce the speed to 30, and bloke behind runs into you. Are you at fault ?

Bob

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

It’s a cruel world, I was nailed officiously for entering a bus-lane prematurely in order to turn left across it.

On the plus side, I now see myself as a freedom loving wild boy, leader of the pack, whom all the chicks will fall for.  Except in the real world I muttered something wet about it being a fair cop and paid the fine.

Dave

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

Seems like a fair cop to me guv. It’s 30 until you pass the 50 sign.

When you leave Liverpool on the M62,  the last speed limit sign you pass is 40. There is no ‘national speed limit’ sign. This means it’s 40 all the way to at least the smart motorway bit, but I’ve often been passed by police cars without their blue lights on. Should I have reported them?

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

I live just off the A14 on a section with a variable speed limit. It is very annoying to be doing the limit (set on the car’s variable limiter against GPS so at limit +0 -1 MPH) and have people sitting on your bumper flashing their lights at you because they can see the end of the limit on the neaxt matrix sign. It’s more gratifying to see some of them accelerate towards the end of limit and then get flashed by the fixed camera between the signs..

Robert.

[David George 1Participant @davidgeorge1]

The Junction is on the A38 Nottinghamshire Sutton in Ashfield with the junction with the B6018   I have been on a speed awarness course and paid the costs already.

David

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

Presumably you were above the usual speed limit +10% +1mph usually applicable to speed cameras?

 

Robert,  Cambridge by any chance?

I recently left Rothwell, quite late at night, towards the A14.  I became aware of a vehicle following me, a safe distance back, within the sharp bends and 30mph limit and again in the 40mph section.  I didn’t slow at any of the bends in the town.

I was minded to think it was plod, so waited and booted all 300 horses immediately after the derestriction marker.  It caught me up, after I settled the cruise to 69mph, and followed me into Kettering. It was plod.  But put simply, if one sticks to the speed limit, one is safe from speeding fines (but not necessarily other  offences).

I don’t know the tolerance allowed in average speed restrictions.  Anyone know?

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi, years ago I used to take a regular route once a week, then at some point they slapped in a speed restriction just a little way past the crest of a hill, which was no problem, but a time or two later I forgot the lower speed limit was there and whizzed past it, but then took my foot of the accelerator and allowed my car to just slow down. But then in the distance, a yellow coat appeared in the middle of the road, and thus I got flagged down, yes it was Mr. plod with a speed gun. I told what I had done, and his response was that the speed limit is exactly where the sign is, not before or after it, but he did say I was lucky as I was just under what I would have got a ticket for, but he did give me a caution.

There is actually no official allowance to the speed limits, and you can get a ticket for being just 1 MPH over the limit, but different areas do give a certain amount of tolerance, which is down to the local authorities discretion, and some may not give any.

Regards Nick.

[GeorgineerParticipant @georgineer]

Hampshire’s thresholds for “driver awareness training” are 35, 46, 57, 68, 79 mph, which looks as though you are allowed 10% + 1 mph.

They say they adhere to national guidelines for speed camera enforcement.

George

[DodParticipant @dod]

It is a well known fact that you can accelerate as soon as you see the next higher speed restriction sign.

Believe that if you will, I have had many discussions on speed limits.

The most common excuse for breaking the speed limit starts with the three words “I wanted to – – – – (insert whatever)-“

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Let’s try this for size:

 

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.1135295,-1.267582,3a,75y,349.44h,90t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sixv_P3otrxcRXV_GhleWmA!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D0%26panoid%3Dixv_P3otrxcRXV_GhleWmA%26yaw%3D349.4393!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en-gb&entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI1MDYyOS4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D

MichaelG.

.

Edit: and for no special reason, I’ve picked this square:

https://w3w.co/dates.intro.since

 

[Speedy Builder5]

On Speedy Builder5 Said:

Would you be reported for dangerous driving if you stamped on your brakes just before a reducing speed sign eg:-  You are travelling at 50mph in a 50 limit area and 10 feet before the 30 limit you stamp on your brakes sufficiently to reduce the speed to 30, and bloke behind runs into you. Are you at fault ?

Bob

No, whenever there is a rear shunt it is always the fault of the car behind for driving too close regardless of the reason for the car in front suddenly braking

[PlasmaParticipant @plasma]

Come to south Yorkshire,  it’s 10% plus two here, which is designed to allow for civilian vehicles not having a calibrated speedo.

We used to have to put a statement in after driving a measured Mile with a calibrated stop watch if we did a speeder with a beat car follow.

I once did a short stint in the safety camera partnership (government cash generator department). My job was to put in the evidence for any ticket that ended up going to trial and appear at court to prove the case.

I didn’t last long as I was a bit of a stickler for actual evidence, a thing that the civilian staff treated as somewhat of a nuisance.

One job that started my decline was a night time Gatso activation. White van man was snapped fair and square well over the limit.

He pleaded not guilty saying the camera was defective and had blinded him with the flash, almost causing him to crash. Presumably the flash stopped him seeing his speedo too.

I checked the camera was functional and in good order. For night time offences a magenta filter is fitted to the camera enclosure so that the flash doesn’t interfere with a drivers vision. This filter is held in place by the biggest internal circlip in all creation,  about 5 inches in diameter. A direct hit with a cruise missile wouldn’t dislodge it.

But this boy insisted he had been flashed by white light so the filter must have been missing.

I pulled the images off to take to court,  as mentioned it was a white van. But the images clearly showed a pink van, illuminated by the magenta flash filter. Case closed.

Nope, the wide boy defended himself and managed to get the CPS lawyer in such a state that he withdrew the case. He threatened to sue because the camera was a danger to law abiding motorists like him, he conveniently forgot the camera was triggered when he went through the detector at 15mph above the limit.

No amount of me pointing out the red hue of the photos was any use with a lawyer who knows very little about motoring offences.

The end for me though came when a pair of brothers were zapped on their way home from the bank. They were representing themselves, remember there is no legal aid for motoring cases. The magistrate was not happy that they had no legal advice, and as he was looking at a significant penalty he wanted them to at least have a fair crack of the whip.

The call went out for any defence lawyer willing to offer a bit of free legal advice to the errant siblings. THE SILENCE WAS DEAFENING!

The magistrate still insisted that these two needed council. The CPS lawyer disqualified himself as he was prosecuting the case and saw a conflict of interest. He also had no concept of what to advise them as he would get me to do all the spade work in proving the case.

So they asked me, chief and only witness for the prosecution. Would I mind having a chat with the brothers grim and advise them of their best course of action.

Talk about not being able to make it up.

So I duly sat with the accused, established what had happened and wrote them a list of questions to ask me when I was in the box.

In court I laid out the evidence for the crown while the CPS man looked confused about speed/ time calculations and photographic evidence.

The brothers were invited to cross examine me and asked each question I had written down in turn.

The answers went something like ; “Yes, no, not always and not in this case your worships.”

After two minutes of whispered cogitation the chair of the bench declared “Not guilty, you may leave the court”.

Yes, I successfully managed to get the defendants off, saving them a fine and lengthy ban.

I simply thought “This is too stupid for words, I’ll point out the only defence they could avail themselves of.” And it worked.

I was also able to see the work of Mr.Loophole up close in court. Defender of the rich and famous he came to our little court to represent someone with plenty of the folding stuff and plenty of points on his licence.

He was a joy to watch and literally the magistrates what they were going to do. I’ve never seen someone so calm and self assured.

Long winded way of saying, if I ever get a speeding or other camera ticket I’ll go to court and give the ball a kick. It’s very possible if not likely that I would be able to tie the CPS in knots, always remember that the traffic cases are handed out to the lowliest lawyers who have not shown the mettle to deal with proper criminal cases.

But on the OPs original point, you don’t accelerate until AFTER you pass the speed limit sign.

 

[Nigel Graham 2Participant @nigelgraham2]

I expect the City of Bristol and its surroundings display a plethora of different speed-limits with umpteen cemeras, but the Council also plays another trick, which caught me when lost there late one night.

I was lost, and so was the “sat-nag”, because a big building fire had closed the A37’s Temple Meads crossing, possibly the city’s only bridge across the Avon apart from Mr. Brunel’s and the M4’s Avonmouth viaduct. Only, the M4 was inaccessible as the M32 was closed for repairs.

The City Council’s wheeze is to call some of its bus lanes “Bus Gates” to fool anyone knowing only the normal term. “Gate” implies something to do with priority at junctions. To add insult to injury the fixed-penalty demand calls it a “Bus Lane“.

You pay only half the fine if done promptly, as I did. You can even appeal. Yet the instructions for that make clear that even if you win, the greedy blighters charge you the balance of the fine for your impertinence.

I added a covering letter assuring them I will NOT visit Bristol for any reason, by any means, in future.

….

{I escaped this awful labrynth via the A4 Eastwards to Keynsham, I think; thence the “Lady In The Box” found some strange route home for us.}

[Dod]

On Dod Said:

It is a well known fact that you can accelerate as soon as you see the next higher speed restriction sign.

Believe that if you will, I have had many discussions on speed limits.

The most common excuse for breaking the speed limit starts with the three words “I wanted to – – – – (insert whatever)-“

And do you have any evidence to support that “fact”? Some case law perhaps?
I know of penty of short limits on straight road were you can see both signs. By your logic the speed limit may as well not exist. It’s clear that the Cameras on the A14 do not follow this logic.

The limit changes at the first sign changing a limit regardless if the limit is going up or down.

There is no requirement for any leniency of enforcement other than allowing for the accuracy and resolution of the detection device used to provide evedence. So if the detector is accurate to 0.3 MPH and has a resolution of 0.1 MPH you could be fined for 0.5 MPH over the limit. There is no allowance for the vehicle speedo accuracy. They must over-read (or be spot on with all tolerances) by law and it is the drivers responsibility. There used to be a 10% + 1 MPH guidance (CPS, Chief Police officers?) but it’s not mandatory. SWMBO was done for 33 in a 30 several years ago no awareness option or 10+1.

[Nigel Graham 2]

On Nigel Graham 2 Said:

[…] You can even appeal. Yet the instructions for that make clear that even if you win, the greedy blighters charge you the balance of the fine for your impertinence. […]

Is that some local Bristolean concept of winning ?

MichaelG.

.

 

[Georgineer]

On Georgineer Said:

Hampshire’s thresholds for “driver awareness training” are 35, 46, 57, 68, 79 mph, which looks as though you are allowed 10% + 1 mph.

They say they adhere to national guidelines for speed camera enforcement.

George

I accelerated a bit too early from a 30mph into a 40mph and got a fine for doing 34mph. There may well be some “guidance” about 10% plus 1mph but obviously it’s ignored sometimes, maybe most of the time?

[PlasmaParticipant @plasma]

There used to be a 10% + 1 MPH guidance (CPS, Chief Police officers?) but it’s not mandatory.

Quite right, a discretionary allowance which some forces do not apply so as you say, anything over the limit and you’re nicked sunshine.

My current car has cameras that spot speed restrictions and even traffic works signs and display them on the dash. Speed limit changes are announced with a gentle bing bong, which sounds a lot like the seat belt chime on aeroplanes.  So there’s not much excuse for not knowing the limit you’re in.

I know the 30 mph restriction is indicated by a system of street lighting and repeater signs if there are no lights and the restriction remains in place. I live on a road that has street lights which then stop as the road becomes more rural. There are repeater signs from then on as the restricted road status remains.

But in a case I gave evidence in some years ago, a driver argued that the road he was driving along had been equipped with 30mph signs (the really old lollipop ones on a black and white pole with internally illuminated glass signs). Sadly they were now broken and only the poles remained. But that was because the road had a system of street lighting so any form of signage was irrelevant. Yes there were speed change signs at the relevant places on this road where a 40 dropped to 30, the old lollipop signs were from when a large steelworks had been there and the road was a lot busier and they were kind of in the middle of the 30 limit, so were a bit of a mystery in themselves.

Anyway, the guy was up for death by dangerous driving having lost control of his car whilst trying to negotiate a smooth curve on said 30 limit road and killed a passenger in his vehicle. His defence team decided that the damaged 30 signs were evidence that their client couldn’t be expected to know the speed limit for the road. (He was a local and drive the road regularly).

I calculated his speed prior to losing control and gave evidence to that effect. His barrister challenged my result and got me to shave 2 mph off my quoted figure, which I was happy to do as there are times when looking fair are better than sticking to your guns and looking like you’re out to get his client.

The judge, a very formidable and intimidating lady, was really miffed about the defence argument regarding the damaged 30mph signs. I remember her berating the barrister saying something along the lines that she passed her test when the highway code included signals for horse drawn vehicle drivers circling their whip to indicate slowing down,  but as far as things had advanced since, a 30 mph restricted road is still indicated by the presence of street lighting, which was present at this scene. She even advised the jury at length about this matter in her summing up.

The verdict passed down from a jury of his peers, not guilty your Honour.

Oh, I nearly forgot. The speed I calculated for the vehicle prior to the loss of control.

93 mph.  Argued down to 91mph by a barrister who thought he had won a significant point.

So even if it had been a derestricted road he would have been travelling 31 mph in excess of the limit.

Ironically his passenger was killed by the intrusion of a large lump of concrete lamp post through the passenger window that removed the greater part of his head. The very lamp posts that should have told the driver how fast he should have been travelling.

Jury trials are all well and good, until you throw in maths, physics and sling a bit of mud around to confuse everyone.

Mick

 

 

[noel shelleyParticipant @noelshelley55608]

Add me to the list, nice steady 30 through the village, derestriction in sight, I had slowly started to pick up speed, 35 mph, £95 and an afternoon in the classroom. Hardly sporting, but that’s life ! Noel

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi Vic, relevant authorities don’t have to give any leeway or add any amount to a 10% guidance at all. When I accidently got one in Northampton many years ago, they had a 10% +2, unfortunately I was +3, but did get a drivers awareness course, and I don’t have to give my Insurers any notice that I had the course, but if your insurers ask, you have to tell them.

It might pay to read through Speeding Penalties and Speed Limits could be some things you’re not aware of.

Regards Nick.

[PlasmaParticipant @plasma]

Income generation pure and simple. They called ours a safety camera outfit but getting people to slow down just for the camera was never going to result in a sea change in driver behaviour.

Speed does not kill people, America did some really in depth testing on human reaction to high speed for the space program. No one died from going very fast.

It is stopping suddenly that causes the human body problems. Or massive impact when a pedestrian comes into conflict with a vehicle.

There will never be a solution to the issue as humans engage in risky behaviour such as speeding or driving dangerously for the thrill of it. If only it could be ordained that the only person to suffer from the consequences of such behaviours was the person engaging in them. But so often we see other innocent road users caught up in the criminally bad driving of others.

Our bypass is a race track most evenings and on warm days for the enthusiastic motor cyclists (wheeled lemming). Every roundabout has huge signage, chevrons and rumble strips from 300m to go, yet every one has tyre markes and damage where drivers either failed to spot the camouflaged island or were trying to find the maximum speed one could negotiate such an obstacle. (Theres a reason they don’t have roundabouts on race circuits).

Every time I drive along it I spot yet another traffic sign or section of barrier destroyed as someone attempted to leave the carriageway.  Not to mention the bunches of flowers cable tied to the scene of a fatal that memorialise someone who was a brilliant, careful driver who just got killed through no fault of his own in a single vehicle collision.

Finally I just wonder what the speed limit is at Picadilly circus, having seen the BMW on its roof after having tried to flatten the statue of eros.  I bet he says he was going 30 and the road surface was defective.

 

 

[Robert Atkinson 2]

On Robert Atkinson 2 Said:

On Dod Said:

It is a well known fact that you can accelerate as soon as you see the next higher speed restriction sign.

Believe that if you will, I have had many discussions on speed limits.

The most common excuse for breaking the speed limit starts with the three words “I wanted to – – – – (insert whatever)-“

And do you have any evidence to support that “fact”? Some case law perhaps?…

I thought Dod’s comment was ironic?   Reads to me as if he’s an ex-traffic cop who has heard all the excuses, and that’s one of his favourites!    I imagine plenty of drivers believe it’s legal to accelerate up to a speed sign, when it isn’t.   Reminds me, I haven’t read the Highway Code this century – hope it’s not changed too much!

Dave

 

[DodParticipant @dod]

SOD  :- my comment was ironical to the point of hardened steel.     Not an ex-traffic cop just a poor soul who has been an Advisor member of RoadSmart  (formerly the Institute of Advanced Motorists  IAM  ) for the last 37 years so have come across nearly every fallacy, misconception, excuse or plain ignorance on driving matters.

My comment  – “I wanted to” has been said nearly every time that someone who has been caught speeding and came to us for improving their driving.    e.g. “I wanted to get home early”   I wanted to get in front of the vehicle in front of me”   ” I wanted to get to the shops before they close”    and so on.

Appears to me that greed/selfishness or simply inattention is the root of all speeding.

[Author]

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