Quick change tool post

[Matt ReidParticipant @mattreid59859]

Metal lathe

[Matt ReidParticipant @mattreid59859]

Hi first post need help in finding a quick change tool post for a dalton lathe which has lantern post if anyone can help with information please get in touch thanks great site

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

Rather depends on centre height/swing and clearance (to centre height) over the slide. It would help, to get some recommendation, if you were to provide more detail. At a guess, the same as for the average myford.

But armed with those details, suppliers would easily make a recommendation from their range of offerings.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by not done it yet on 28/04/2020 07:28:33:

[…] At a guess, the same as for the average myford. […]

.

Too help avoid speculation, Matt … Have a look through these pages: **LINK**

http://www.lathes.co.uk/dalton/index.html

Hopefully you can then tell us which model of Dalton you have.

MichaelG.

[Matt ReidParticipant @mattreid59859]

Thanks for all your help looking at the link I can confirm it is a b4 dalton I am new to lathes with this information can you recommend quick change tool post would fit even a used one thanks again

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

Welcome to the forum. If in the UK the Dalton is rather rare I think.
If a beginner there are plenty of things more useful to spend money on that a qctp. The Armstrong tool holders your lantern post takes are quarter the price of QCTP holders and have built in tool height adjustment that holds between changes plus are way more rigid.

[egaParticipant @ega]

Posted by Bazyle on 28/04/2020 10:03:37:

and have built in tool height adjustment that holds between changes

Please explain how this works. I thought that when the toolholder is released the saucer shaped washer is free to move thus losing the height setting?

[VicParticipant @vic]

I use a four way tool post with a Tangential tool which has its own height adjustment. I also use insert tooling either with the tool trimmed on the mill or a spacer permanently bonded to the underside so they’re always on centre.

[Matt ReidParticipant @mattreid59859]

I want a easy set up would need to keep trying to set wedge it's not easy and can't sharpen hss that's why I would like a descent cheap holder

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

Like Vic, I am an enthusiast for a four way toolpost and Tangential Turning Tool.

I lack the space to store the eight or more QCP toolholders, that are likely to be needed, and time is rarely of the essence for hobby work, rather than industry or a jobbing shop.

I abhor boat tool holders, because as the height is adjusted to centre, the rake changes.

With the Tangential tool, it is set to centre height without changing any other setting. It is also a doddle to sharpen, since there is only one face to grind.

Well worth making a Centre Height Gauge to make setting easier.

A four way means that you can certainly have three tools ready for use, may be even possibly four

I have four way back toolpost on my lathe, as well, so have a choice of six tools always available.

Parting, front and back chamfer in the back post.

Rougher, Tangential, and Boring tool in the front.

The Boring bar comes out for knurling or (rarely) ball turning.

If you want, you can make a fourway toolpost in your lathe, either from one solid piece of metal, or from laminations of slightly thinner steel. A Centre lathe is a MOST useful machine!.

If you want a QCP go for it, but I do remember an article in MEW where someone extolling his QCP said that tool changing was no quicker than with a four way toolpost

Sorry if this causes any confusion, but it is an alternative.

Howard.

[Dave HalfordParticipant @davehalford22513]

Hi Matt,

Welcome to the world of ancient lathes.

I have a T&LM which came with the lantern post, which I converted to flat mount with a bigger Armstrong type 1" holder.

Bazyle's point holds if you mount it like I did. It's simply a lump of angle iron cut slightly higher than the holder and it's best to use a flat plate in the tee slot that fills it completely to protect the cast slot from over tightening.

You need to pick a holder size that works for your lathe and pull the HSS out of the holder till it matches your centre height.

The chuck key is in a terrible place for a working lathe, this was part of a pic for selling it and put there only to prove there was one present

Edited By Dave Halford on 28/04/2020 11:17:29

[Clive FosterParticipant @clivefoster55965]

Matt

The lathe type Armstrong toolholders set the tool bit pointing upwards at a shallow angle. (Flat ones are for shapers.) Simply sliding the tool in or out as appropriate allows you to adjust the tip height. Although limited this inherent adjustability is quite enough to let you replace the boat and saucer shape washer unit with a simple plain flat washer thick enough to bring the tip close to centre height. Final positioning being by sliding the tool. Many folk have simply dumped the boat and flipped the saucer washer over to give a flat surface for the Amstrong to sit on. General opinion is that this works better with an extra spacer as without it the tool bit projection becomes longer than desirable. Something around 1/8" to 3/16" thick is commonly suggested by American users of lathes similarly sized to yours. But it depends on what breed your "Armstrong" holder is as shank depth and height of tool above the base does vary between makes.

Same plain washer trick works just fine for carbide insert tooling except now you have to match the spacer to the particular tool holder so the cutting tip is at centre height. No great issue with the "flip the saucer washer" trick as you need an extra spacer anyway. Except for parting tools its generally possible to choose a set of toolholders that put the cutting tip at the same height above the base for all the different shapes an angles so one spacer will do for all. A parting tool is best held in its own dedicated block to maximise rigidity.

As for sharpening HSS tooling the uptilt angle of the bit in the Armstrong holder basically provides top rake so only the two sides of the tool need to be sharpened. Probably the simplest way for a neophyte to get angles using a conventional grinder is to arrange a raised toolrest so the curve of the wheel naturally puts a satisfactory angle on. There have been couple of recent articles in MEW covering this method. Hopefully someone who actually uses it will chime in with practical assistance.

Despite the pundits and textbooks the angles aren't critical for ordinary home shop users. Really sharp beats "book correct angles" any day. A flat top is perfectly satsfactory at home shop cutting depths. For brass the Armstrong uptilt angle will be too great, but its easy to grind top at a flat angle to compensate.

A potential issue when using older lathes designed for lantern or block toolposts with QCTP systems is overhang. Of necessity the tool in a QCTP must be well off to one side of the stout central post which almost invariably gives significant overhang relative to the cross and top slide ways on older, small, machines. Not being designed for this an older machine often doesn't cope well with the offset loads. Inevitable wear over many years doesn't help.

Lantern or block type holders put the tool rather more central on the topslide giving more equalised loads. which would seem a more desirable state of affairs.

Entirely adequate block style toolposts can be made by screwing and gluing together stock metal sections. I'd go for a two slot system. Perhaps 3/8" thick steel flat bar of suitable width for the bottom, thicker is good if the toolholder doesn't end up too high. 1/2" or, better, 5/8" for the top and a lump of alloy bar in the middle a little over two toolholder widths slimmer with perhaps 1/4" clearance above the toolholder when its suitably spaced up. Alloy is easier to tap than steel and plenty strong enough.. M6 countersunk screws to hold it together, M6 capheads to hold the tool in. Four way posts of that style worked for me with my SouthBend machines many years ago. Four or five loaded up with tools and ready to go made an adequate poor boys substitute for a proper QC set up. But I only ever used two slots.

Clive

Edited By Clive Foster on 28/04/2020 12:20:41

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

Carbide was developed with the object of maximising production rates, using high cutting speeds on rigid industrial machines. They work on hobby machines but probably not as effectively as they were originally intended to be.

The older the machine, the less likely it is to be really suitable, for such tooling.

Also, Carbide is more easily chipped than HSS, and more costly.. The principle on which it cuts is different from HSS, and may be unsuitable for some materials. It does cut hardened steel beautifully! So horses for courses.

For the cost of one Carbide tip you can buy a HSS toolbit which can be reground many times, and so outlast the tip.by a long way.

With a simple bench grinder, you can sharpen HSS tools, (and twist drills if you are careful ), and shape it to the form that you require, such as for chamfering or radiusing, and eventually, even screw cutting..

Get one, because you will need it to sharpen tools whatever form of toolpost you use.

If you are unsure of how to grind a tool, buy a book such as L H Sparey's "The Amateur's Lathe", Ian Bradley's "The Amateur's Workshop" or Tubal Cain's "Model Engineers Handbook". They will all be good reference books, containing information that you will find useful at some time.

The short 1/4" toolbit in my Tangential Turning Tool is not yet worn out, despite all the use and abuse that it gets as the main cutting tool on the lathe, over the last three or so years.

When I bought my used Myford ML7 back in about 1980, I was given a HSS parting tool. It is still only about half length, so a long way from being worn beyond further use.

Learning how to grind a HSS tool will be a skill that will never cease to be be useful.

Howard

[Matt ReidParticipant @mattreid59859]

Guys thanks for all reply think I will try get a cheapish qrtp so problem now is how to measure up for tool post if poss could a picture be put up as I am new to lathes you have gave me a lot to think about on subject as I can't sharpen hss if I get new tool post it might give me the chance to try other cutters again thanks

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

Ok since you are determined lets get down to business on QCTPs. There are 3 main types for hobbyists.and lots of home made and less common types.
The Dickson / Dixon style that has two raised Vs pointing forward from the main block and corresponding V recesses on the tool holder. These tend to be slightly more expensive and holder can be less interchangeable between suppliers. So avoid.
Next is the Piston type with a male dovetail on the block and female on the holder and the piston is arranged to push the centre of the holder away from the body to snug up the dovetail. This is the cheapest and the holders less prone to interchangeability problems. This si the one to get. they also get referred to as Aloris type after the first manufacturer.
The third option is a variant of the one above that has a part of the dovetail on the body that moves outwards pulling the dovetail holder inwards and tight. This is the best type (If you want to argue start a different thread please) and is a relatively new style and more expensive.

All varieties have a number of different size designations depending on the manufacturer.

Measure the distance between the top of your topslide and the centre line of your spindle. This is the important bit not the size of your lathe in what it can turn (as in its a 4 in centre height lathe or a 10 in swing lathe). Let us know and we can see who has the same size.

Edit: Beware cheap toolposts that are actually aluminium. Make sure you are getting steel. It is a big con trick in the last few years.

Edited By Bazyle on 29/04/2020 13:47:31

[Former MemberParticipant @formermember32069]

[This posting has been removed]

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

I deliberately left out the multifix which is far too expensive for a hobbyist.

[Former MemberParticipant @formermember32069]

[This posting has been removed]

[thaiguzziParticipant @thaiguzzi]

Clive as usual is right on the money.

Howard's comment on an article about a 4 way being as quick to change a tool as a QCTP. Puleeze.

i mean its not a race but how do you beat 5 seconds? If that.

I have a Dickson, and 19 toolholders,and have used Dicksons for 30 odd years, but TBH, all the QCTP these days for home shop use are pretty much of a muchness.

I also made myself a Lantern a couple of years ago, flat washer – no boat, and it has become a usefull little tool, gets in tight spaces and can shift metal.

I also have the original, genuine, ratcheting every 45 degrees 4 way, and is comfortably my least favourite holder, always relegated to last choice and "do i really have to"?

So, plenty of different, healthy opinions, as per usual.

IMHO, i'd get used to your lathe first, buy some HSS, use your lantern WITHOUT the boat, and spend the QCTP money on a decent 6-8" bench grinder.

The choice is yours.

[clogsParticipant @clogs]

thaiguzzi…….

rather like ur degree circle…..tool post…..

as I'm getting olde this would make a good add on………

did u make it……?

ta

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

As I've said before, as a hobby, time is not of the essence. No one is standing behind us with a stop watch!

Absolute deadlines rarely trouble us.

Have to say that I was surprised to read the comparison between the two types.

Fully agree with Thaiguzzi about becoming familiar with the machine, tools, (and grinding thereof ) and machining before making things too complicated.

The Centre Height Gauge, is an example of the sort of device that would be a good investment of time and material, and as as a means of gaining experience.

If you are unsure of how to go about making one, I am sure that there would be plenty of folk who would explain how they went about making the one that they use.

Howard

[Andrew TinsleyParticipant @andrewtinsley63637]

If you want a good QCTP and lots of holders then you will be paying out a lot of cash. The cheap ones are really not a lot of use in the rigidity stakes. So if you have a couple of hundred to spare, go ahead.In my view it is self defeating to have only 3 or 4 holders

I did the same as you are intending but I purchased from the guy who used to make QCTPs for the original Myford factory. They are excellent, but if you want a really rigid style of toolholder, then I recommend the four way tool holder that G H Thomas designed. Absolutely rock solid and highly repeatable.

If you are only going to use carbide, then shim the holder once and stick the shim to the bottom of the holder. I have both systems and I know which I prefer.

Andrew.

Edited By Andrew Tinsley on 29/04/2020 17:40:18

[MK_ChrisParticipant @mk_chris]

Example of Lantern tool post with height adjustment. The thread is the Buttress type at 13 TPI.

The collar is free to turn but a piece of masking tape or similar with a thin permanent marker line on it can be used for location. Part of recovery project that is slow progress not helped by age and a heart attack. So it still looks rather rough.

Chris.

[Matt ReidParticipant @mattreid59859]

Guys information and help is appreciated I haven't long got lathe and it only came with one holder and cutter so can't really do much as never sharpened bits that's why the qctp I could buy carbide and then go for it rather than get angry because I could not sharpen hss so time in setting up is not important whare can I buy hss holders and which hss again thanks

[thaiguzziParticipant @thaiguzzi]

Posted by Matt Reid on 29/04/2020 20:10:27:

Guys information and help is appreciated I haven't long got lathe and it only came with one holder and cutter so can't really do much as never sharpened bits that's why the qctp I could buy carbide and then go for it rather than get angry because I could not sharpen hss so time in setting up is not important whare can I buy hss holders and which hss again thanks

You would not believe how easy it is to sharpen small 1/4 or 5/16" HSS square on a bench grinder to get a working sharp toolbit. Holders, Chinese copies or the genuine S/H Armstrong, all cheap on Ebay or go for the Diamond Tool Holder advertised on these pages, and a beginner CANNOT go wrong with one of these.

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