Notre Dame

[ronan walshParticipant @ronanwalsh98054]

I am from Ireland, and while yes a tiny minority of the catholic church did horrific things, a huge amount of them did hard and good work in working class areas, often for very little thanks or recognition, and was one of the glues that bound society together. But as usual the majority pays for the sins/crimes of the minority. Is the bbc a paedophile organisation because of savile, harris etc ? They were getting huge salaries from the taxpayers, to produce rubbish programmes and rape youngsters.

Nearly any group who have been around for a long time has questions to answer, no more than the royal family, look back a bit at the dreadful way people who displeased them were treated during the last thousand years. The bloody tower, hanging drawing and quartering, pitch capping, the rack etc. The royals under Henry the eighth, profited hugely from the catholic church when he seized their lands and property.

No group should be free from criticism, but if you are going to sling muck, please sling it equally.

As for the cathedral, what a terrible thing to happen to such a historic and wonderful building, terrible, just as it would be if St.Pauls were to have burned during the blitz. Notre dame is owned by the republic of France, So it is their property and they are responsible for the damage repairs.

[blowlampParticipant @blowlamp]

Posted by ronan walsh on 16/04/2019 23:21:20:

I am from Ireland, and while yes a tiny minority of the catholic church did horrific things, a huge amount of them did hard and good work in working class areas, often for very little thanks or recognition, and was one of the glues that bound society together. But as usual the majority pays for the sins/crimes of the minority. Is the bbc a paedophile organisation because of savile, harris etc ? They were getting huge salaries from the taxpayers, to produce rubbish programmes and rape youngsters.

Nearly any group who have been around for a long time has questHomeions to answer, no more than the royal family, look back a bit at the dreadful way people who displeased them were treated during the last thousand years. The bloody tower, hanging drawing and quartering, pitch capping, the rack etc. The royals under Henry the eighth, profited hugely from the catholic church when he seized their lands and property.

No group should be free from criticism, but if you are going to sling muck, please sling it equally.

As for the cathedral, what a terrible thing to happen to such a historic and wonderful building, terrible, just as it would be if St.Pauls were to have burned during the blitz. Notre dame is owned by the republic of France, So it is their property and they are responsible for the damage repairs.

A good question about the BBC.

I believe they have some of Eric Gill's work in and around BBC property – read a little about his personal life and decide for yourself.

[John OlsenParticipant @johnolsen79199]

Of course if we were really serious about feeding the hungry etc, we wouldn't be wasting our time posting on this site, we would be out digging in the garden to give the produce to the poor.

Not all resources can be usefully applied to any particular problem, eg the people who can rebuild the cathedral probably could not directly contribute to curing cancer.

John

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

Posted by Gas_mantle. on 16/04/2019 21:00:07:

Posted by Bill Phinn on 16/04/2019 20:46:10:

I'm sure the starving millions will sleep happily tonight after reading that sonnet and knowing the money is being put to good use

What a set of miserable buggers. The UK budget for foreign aid is £10bn per year, no doubt other countries western countries spend a similar proportion of their GDP. The cost of restoring Notre Dame will be insignificant in comparison, and as others have pointed out will be extra money, not diverted from aid budgets. Do these whingers want us to live in Nissen huts whilst our history falls apart around us

[Gas_mantle.Participant @gas_mantle]

What a set of miserable buggers. The UK budget for foreign aid is £10bn per year, no doubt other countries western countries spend a similar proportion of their GDP. The cost of restoring Notre Dame will be insignificant in comparison, and as others have pointed out will be extra money, not diverted from aid budgets. Do these whingers want us to live in Nissen huts whilst our history falls apart around us

The point is the £10bn the UK 'gives' in foreign aid isn't altruistic, it's a common misconception that we give away money to help the starving. In reality we (and the other western nations) donate enough money to keep the people alive who produce our cheap produce.

Donating money to a starving country comes with strings attached, we don't give away money for nothing, if you think that then you are naive.

I'd love to see the cathedral restored but I find it offensive to think the Catholic Church worth billions will accept privately donated money. Either they pay or leave it as a damaged structure like Coventry cathedral

[blowlampParticipant @blowlamp]

I remember the Biafra Appeal charity box being passed around at school. I found out many years later that our government was, at the same time, actively promoting & funding the war over there and that's what is happening now with Yemen.

[Bill PhinnParticipant @billphinn90025]

Posted by duncan webster on 16/04/2019 23:56:48:

Posted by Gas_mantle. on 16/04/2019 21:00:07:

Posted by Bill Phinn on 16/04/2019 20:46:10:

I'm sure the starving millions will sleep happily tonight after reading that sonnet and knowing the money is being put to good use

What a set of miserable buggers…Do these whingers want us to live in Nissen huts whilst our history falls apart around us

Duncan, a little reassurance that you've not (inexplicably) included me in the category of miserable buggers/whingers would be welcome at this point. It's a fairly drastic misinterpretation of my position if you have.

[Bill PhinnParticipant @billphinn90025]

Posted by Gas_mantle. on 17/04/2019 00:21:20:

 

The point is the £10bn the UK 'gives' in foreign aid isn't altruistic, it's a common misconception that we give away money to help the starving. In reality we (and the other western nations) donate enough money to keep the people alive who produce our cheap produce.

Donating money to a starving country comes with strings attached, we don't give away money for nothing, if you think that then you are naive.

 

Your comments may or may not be correct if you're talking about state aid. However, in 2017 alone British people as individuals (i.e. people like you and me) gave £10.3 billion in private charitable donations. https://www.cafonline.org/docs/default-source/about-us-publications/caf-uk-giving-2018-report.pdf

Perhaps you'd be good enough to acknowledge therefore that, contrary to your rather too sweeping assertion, the UK in the form of many ordinary British people does in fact give substantial amounts of money "to help the starving" and with no "strings attached".

Edited By Bill Phinn on 17/04/2019 01:29:20

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

From what I saw when I lived in Africa, an awful lot of "first world" government aid money goes to large companies based in the donor country to pay them to provide services, or build infrastructure in the recipient country. The money never leaves the donor country. It's just transferred from the public purse to the private sector there. The recipient country ends up with a nice new power station or railway as a secondary benefit of the deal.

So if the UK donates money to help fix Notre Dame, it could be paid to British building firms etc to go over and do part of the job, or to a UK firm to supply materials etc (or WHS fire prevention protocols ).

[PlasmaParticipant @plasma]

Politics, religion and theology aside I agree the building is an iconic structure and, as such, a symbol of what human ingenuity can achieve.

I wonder if it's worth rebuilding fully to show what could be achieved 850 years ago, a giant museum if you like. Apply that logic and we should be re-pointing Stonehenge and bunging some scaffolding over a few pyramids if not gluing the arms back on venus de milo.

I especially wonder if it's worth recreating it with robot stone carvers as mentioned by one eminent architect, surely the things stands as a monument to human achievement, not the speed or dexterity of a machine (yes I know humans made the machines so therefore made the produce of those machines). A bit like CNC or 3D printing, kind of cheating in my eyes.

I'm sure our old mate Fred Dibnah would be saying, "aye go on then, put it back up, but do it the way them buggers did in the old days"

As a final comment maybe it should be made safe, preserved as a shell and used to demonsterate the frailties or mankind as in a careless action could destroy nearly a thousand years of work. I think Coventry cathedral stands in the same way to show how much damage we can do as well as how much good.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Time to lock this thread as it is now more about religion & politics.

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