Notre Dame

[Peter G. ShawParticipant @peterg-shaw75338]

Yes, it's amazing just how much folk will give for something like this, but when it comes to health, education etc, not a penny, cent, peso or whatever. It does seem to me that priorities are wrong.

Peter G. Shaw

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

I heard that the place was also known as the forest because of the amount of timber used in it;s construction, and it was the wood that was the thing that was being worked on as it was in a bad state, worry about the roof falling in, and that sort of thing. I think from what I'v heard here, "we have a cathedral here that needs rebuilding after the earthquake 8 years ago (well 2 Cathedrals actually, C of E, and RC).

Ian S C

[Mike PooleParticipant @mikepoole82104]

The Hindu community in London built this magnificent temple in Wembley, I think they had to bring some of the skilled people from India but I am sure the skills exist worldwide to restore Notre Dame to its former glory.Wembley Temple.

Mike

[ChrisBParticipant @chrisb35596]

Posted by Alan Waddington 2 on 16/04/2019 09:11:34:

Can’t help thinking the money it will take to rebuild could be better spent elsewhere, its just a building when all’s said and done.

Let's be honest – No, it's not "just a building" if it were, no one would care. It's history, a thousand years of it – that's why it will be restored. Every country in the world worth it's name will do it's best to preserve it's history.

Let me say that I agree with part of your comment that there's money which could be better spent elsewhere – that money could come from governments who spend multiple billions yearly on armaments etc.

 

Edited By ChrisB on 16/04/2019 13:12:29

[Roger Williams 2Participant @rogerwilliams2]

Alan Waddington 2, well said. Makes me angry when I see people on street corners in the rain collecting money for cancer research, when they will now spend billions on a building which is just a monument to human stupidity.

[Clive HartlandParticipant @clivehartland94829]

They say the lead roofing has melted, what a mess with molten lead if that is so!

[Gas_mantle.Participant @gas_mantle]

Posted by Roger Williams 2 on 16/04/2019 13:57:04:

Alan Waddington 2, well said. Makes me angry when I see people on street corners in the rain collecting money for cancer research, when they will now spend billions on a building which is just a monument to human stupidity.

Well said, if someone has a few million to spare isn't it sad they haven't had the urge to want to put it to use helping the starving, sick etc.

[Guy LambParticipant @guylamb68056]

Posted by ChrisB on 16/04/2019 13:12:02:

Posted by Alan Waddington 2 on 16/04/2019 09:11:34:

Can’t help thinking the money it will take to rebuild could be better spent elsewhere, its just a building when all’s said and done.

Let's be honest – No, it's not "just a building" if it were, no one would care. It's history, a thousand years of it – that's why it will be restored. Every country in the world worth it's name will do it's best to preserve it's history.

Let me say that I agree with part of your comment that there's money which could be better spent elsewhere – that money could come from governments who spend multiple billions yearly on armaments etc.

Edited By ChrisB on 16/04/2019 13:12:29

It's very much open to debate, do we recreate a building/locomotive/ship &co to replace the lost artifact or repair what is left of the original ? If we rebuild totally all you get is a facsimile, however good. If we repair, to which particular point in time do we choose, as a building like N D changed very much over its 850 years. BTW I believe the spire was a 19c construction contemporary with Baron Haussmanns rebuilding of Paris.

Guy

[ChrisBParticipant @chrisb35596]

As far as I can tell from the news the damage, although extensive did not render the cathedral a ruin. So imho it makes sense to repair the damage. I won't get into how it should be done as I'm no restorer nor a history expert.

What amuses me is people suggesting one should not donate to have it fixed. I mean, why should it be a sad thing to donate for such a cause if one had the means? It's a good cause, just as much as donating to the poor…which I believe they all do!

[SamsarandaParticipant @samsaranda]

Guy, I didn’t realise the spire was a 19th century addition, probably explains why it looked ridiculous perched up on the roof, it was totally out of character with the form of the building, hope they choose not to reinstate it but then I suppose they will want to recreate an exact facsimile.

Dave W

[Cornish JackParticipant @cornishjack]

Two possibilities??

Clean up the remains and leave as is … like the original Coventry Cathedral.

or

Rebuild as was BUT … it will only ever be a replica!!

As to available craftsmen – check on the Guedelon site – **LINK**

Genuine original skills AND French, to boot!

rgds

Bill

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

Never noticed it before but Samsandra is right, leave the spire off it's out of place. as to repairing it, throughout the history of these buildings bits have been mended or replaced, one end of Hexham Abbey was a complete ruin until the Victorians rebuilt it, should they have left it alone? I think not. As long as they don't fit a flat felt roof.

[Nigel McBurney 1Participant @nigelmcburney1]

building & restoration work again the probable cause of the fire,and accidents keep on happening, and it will happen again because people involved are careless and there do not appear to be any one constantly checking buidings after work for the day has finished,lot cheaper than total disaster. Watching the news last night,one view along one side of the building only showed one hose on a hydraulic tower ,whats the use of one jet of water on a fire that size,look back on any film of the London blitz and the large numbers of hoses in use and the streets filled with hoses all pumping water,noawadays there appears to be just like the local councils ,ten firemen and their bosses looking on and just one bloke with a hose. My old man was in the brigade after the war,and it was usually two appliances and ten men and they put fires out ,on the dailly news it now takes an awful lot more me and they never appear to get stuck in,I expect half the time is taken up with risk assesments.

And why spend all that money on rebuild on something that is of no real practical use.

[Bill PhinnParticipant @billphinn90025]

Posted by Nigel McBurney 1 on 16/04/2019 19:23:19:

And why spend all that money on rebuild on something that is of no real practical use.

I could give you a long disquisition on various needs and yearnings that make us human, but Francis Thompson summed it up more eloquently in his sonnet "O nothing in this corporal earth of man…", particularly in the closing lines:

"…Our towns are copied fragments from our breast,

And all man's Babylons strive but to impart

The grandeurs of his Babylonian heart."

Notre Dame is one such Babylon.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Nigel McBurney 1 on 16/04/2019 19:23:19:

… Watching the news last night,one view along one side of the building only showed one hose on a hydraulic tower ,whats the use of one jet of water on a fire that size,look back on any film of the London blitz and the large numbers of hoses in use and the streets filled with hoses all pumping water,noawadays there appears to be just like the local councils ,ten firemen and their bosses looking on and just one bloke with a hose.

…

And why spend all that money on rebuild on something that is of no real practical use.

I can see 3 hoses in one picture, all on giant cherry-pickers. Not an item of kit the average fire brigade would have.

Notre Dame's spire is about 175m high, and the lower roof about 60m up. An ordinary fire engine would have no chance of squirting water that high effectively.

Tourism is worth €77bn per year to the French economy and Notre Dame is a major attraction. For that reason alone it's worth repairing.

[Gas_mantle.Participant @gas_mantle]

Posted by Bill Phinn on 16/04/2019 20:46:10:

I could give you a long disquisition on various needs and yearnings that make us human, but Francis Thompson summed it up more eloquently in his sonnet "O nothing in this corporal earth of man…", particularly in the closing lines:

"…Our towns are copied fragments from our breast,

And all man's Babylons strive but to impart

The grandeurs of his Babylonian heart."

Notre Dame is one such Babylon.

I'm sure the starving millions will sleep happily tonight after reading that sonnet and knowing the money is being put to good use

[Bill PhinnParticipant @billphinn90025]

Posted by Gas_mantle. on 16/04/2019 21:00:07:

I'm sure the starving millions will sleep happily tonight after reading that sonnet and knowing the money is being put to good use

That's a completely understandable response, Gas_mantle.

Your thinking was anticipated by a few thousand years by Aristotle, who in discussing moral virtues in Book III of his Nicomachean Ethics deals with the virtue of "Liberality/generosity" in the section immediately before the one on "Magnificence"; by magnificence he had in mind such things as lavish spending on public projects such as temples.

Incidentally, one thing I've not seen mentioned anywhere in the news is the beautiful and diverse range of trees that were growing on the site and what damage these trees have sustained.

[Peter G. ShawParticipant @peterg-shaw75338]

I think it is worth asking, would such a building be erected today? And if the answer is no, then why not?

And is it really a good cause? Who does it benefit? Probably not the common hoi polloi apart from the temporary jobs that might be created. Ok, if it's good for tourism, then perhaps the tourists should be charged a hefty price for viewing it.

I think it is worthwhile trying to put oneself in the place of someone who was alive when it was being built. Remember that a large proportion of the people were illiterate and uneducated, and perforce had to doff the cap, tug the forelock, and do what the priests etc, ie the literate and educated, told them. So maybe it was all for the edification of the religious fraternity with the common man being told to cough up and shut up. Which perhaps leads me onto thinking that perhaps the religious fraternity should pay for its restoration. After all, we keep hearing about how much money the religious fraternity have stashed away, so here is (maybe) a suitable project for them.

Hmmm.

Peter G. Shaw

[blowlampParticipant @blowlamp]

I'd rebuild it open-plan and with a glass roof to make it light & airy. I'd also have bi-fold doors at one end to 'connect' with the outside space along with a separate area for the kids to play in.

Fund the rebuild by selling off the 'Holy Ash' from the fire.

[Gas_mantle.Participant @gas_mantle]

The thing to bear in mind is the Catholic Church (who presumably are the owners?) are one of the weathliest institutions on the earth, they don't declare tax and the accusations of their organised paedophilia are hard to ignore.

If they want to have their cathedral restored that's fine but they ought to pay for it themselves. I find it disgraceful that an organisation as wealthy as the Catholic Church are possibly going to accept public donations that could be better used on the real needy.

As far as I'm concerned any donations to save the cathedral are going into the pockets of a glorified paedophile racket.

[Guy LambParticipant @guylamb68056]

From what I can gather the French State is responsible for the repairs which is a little surprising considering France is a secular state.

Guy

[ChrisBParticipant @chrisb35596]

I think you got it wrong Guy, the Notre Dame, is the property of the French State, but taken care of and used by the Church, including it's upkeep. It is also a UNESCO world heritage site, for those who think it's of no practical use.

Regarding donations by the Church to restore the damage, google is your friend…

[blowlampParticipant @blowlamp]

Perhaps a grant from the EU will be forthcoming?

The 'Yellow Vest' protestors will be happy if the money comes from the tax payer, I'm sure.

[Alan Waddington 2Participant @alanwaddington2]

Funny job the religion thing…….That book they follow is packed with dire warnings about the dangers of hoarding wealth, and advocates giving it all to the needy……..guess the catholic church just skip those pages

[Gas_mantle.Participant @gas_mantle]

Posted by Alan Waddington 2 on 16/04/2019 22:31:00:

Funny job the religion thing…….That book they follow is packed with dire warnings about the dangers of hoarding wealth, and advocates giving it all to the needy……..guess the catholic church just skip those pages

You ought to read Chris Hitchens book 'The missionary position.' it highlights the corruption in the Catholic Church years before the current paedophile accusations came to light.

Mother Theresa set up the 'House of the dying' in Calcutta on the premise she was helping the sick. In reality she was accepting donations left, right and centre from all walks of life yet none (or very little) was going to the needy. The vast majority was spent on spreading Catholicism and banking the wealth whilst covering up corruption.

If the Catholic Church want their cathedral fixed it's time they put their hand in their pocket and paid themselves.

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