Macs -V- Windows PC’s

[RJWParticipant @rjw]

Hope I've posted this in the right place, and apologies in advance if not!

Not a topic intended to start a Windows -V- Mac war, but serious questions for Mac geeks before I dish out a sizeable chunk of money to jump ship!!

If you've jumped ship yourself from Microsoft to Mac. so much the better!

OK, some background!

I've been using Windows since the early 90's when I cut my teeth on DOS, then worked through Win 3.11 – 95 – 98 – XP, The Vista travesty and now win7, which I have to confess is the best of the lot, But, I'm now sick to my back teeth of spending hours a week downloading and monitoring updates and rebooting ad nauseum for Windows software, malware programmes, anti-virus programmes and everything else programme intended to foil crackers and hackers finding holes every which way in Microsoft's virtual sieve!

The final straw was dished out during our last holiday in France where I'm stuck with dial-up, when it hit me that the updates and numbers of programmes 'calling home' had become so frequent and frankly, bloody huge and intrusive, that I had to resort to sitting in supermarket car parks scrunched up in my car hooking into unsecured WiFi networks to be able to download all that (admittedly necessary) crap to render my laptop useable for a while, And remain solvent!

So, after 3 decades of suffering the foibles of Microsoft products, I've had enough and thinking of jumping ship to a Mac! I'm not very happy getting my sleeves rolled up to fiddle around with Ubuntu, and I'm at the point I just want to switch on my computer and use it for the purpose I bought it.

My questions: are Macs worth the expense? Will they make my cyber life blissfully bearable again?

Are Mac operating systems fairly easy to get your head around, I didn't find Ubuntu particularly easy to use so won't be going down that route!

Do Mac's suffer similar endless cycles of updates and scores of hidden service connections calling home?

Are you able to just power the things up and use them to do the job they were intended to do (compute) without all the time consuming interference, not to mention huge consumption of bandwidth (I'm on 10gig per month limit here)?

How many of you Mac users use antivirus and malware products (I know Mac's are not immune to trojans and virus attacks even if they are immune to Windows variants)!

Is there anything similar to MS Office for Macs that works as well and doesn't need updating constantly?

Please, I don't want to hear rabid Microsoft bashing, but I do want to hear all views about Macs as an alternative and why you think they're better!

Most importantly, will I be able to go online to get my emails and browse a few web pages on dial-up without having my connection crippled by all the damned programme updates hogging the pathetic 3kB/S connection I get out there!

Honest opinions will be very much appreciated!

John

[RJWParticipant @rjw]

[chris jParticipant @chrisj]

You can run windows on you mc in a partition if you want.

There is a mac version of microsoft office.

Updates are free until they go to a new version but they are only £15 or so.

I don't run any extra anti-virus at all, no problems so far.

If you can afford it get a mac.

[blowlampParticipant @blowlamp]

I run Windows 7 with Microsoft Security Essentials for protection and apart from the odd big update from MS, which delays shut-down for a while, I don't experience any of the issues you speak of. It just works.

Computer is on all day – every day, with no other measures taken and I've never had a virus, but I am careful about clicking on e-mail links etc.

I don't let myself get bogged down with all the eyewash about virus protection and all that, because I believe it's in the interest of Norton and Kapersky etc to keep us all frightened.

Martin.

[SteambuffParticipant @steambuff]

I agree with the first two paragraphs that Martin wrote,

My PC is on 24/7 and I only have to reboot once a month … I run Norton Internet Security to handle my AV/Spyware/Malware etc.

Viri (Is that the plural), Malware/Spyware is there, you just have to be careful … but all have to do is go to the wrong web site …. then Mr Norton (or whoever) does his stuff. (It has protected me … I know that by looking at the logs)

I would stay with PC.

Dave

[RJWParticipant @rjw]

Thanks for the comments Chris, I'm trying to get away from Microsoft where I can, but it is likely that the Mac versions of their office software isn't as vulnerable!

Martin, you don't experience the issues I mention any more than I do here because we both obviously use broadband, I would be very interested to hear your views if you were confined to using dial-up for a few months in the year, if you had to download 50 or 60 megabytes on dial-up for a windows update at a time you'd have a very different opinion then, trust me, even antivirus definitions are around a couple of meg's, sometimes several times a day, but if you're on an 'always on' broadband connection you're not aware of it going on until you're asked to reboot!

As for getting bogged down with eyewash, why do you think Microsoft churn out so many 'Security updates'? why do you think they created their 'Security Essentials' programme? it's a free product just like Malwarebytes, AVG and Avast etc, and has cost them a lot of money to produce and maintain, some of the best AV products on the market are actually free, so who are they trying to frighten and for what purpose?

Many users who have virus and trojan infections on their Windows pc's are the very people who think it's eyewash and don't even know they've got one, it's usually the people logged in their address books that know about it, because they're spammed into oblivion with phishing Emails or trojan/virus laden attachments sent from those infected pc's that have become part of a botnet, it's big bucks business to the criminals involved, and costing the banks £billions annually, it's well doccumented fact and often mentioned on mainstream news channels! Eyewash, I don't think so!

The biggest single reason Microsoft products are so vulnerable and need so much patching, is because so many users worldwide are using them, and a sizeable percentage of those users haven't a clue about security, many even now with no firewall Or AV products installed and have probably never installed a security patch on their operating systems, so it's Very rich pickings for cyber criminals! Macs and Linux by comparison have a relatively smaller user base so less attractive for cyber criminals to devote the time writing necessary code to hack into those systems!

If Linux and Mac had user bases bigger than Microsoft, the boot would be on the other foot, crooks always go to where the easiest pickings are just like pickpockets in a crowd!

Anyway, this discussion isn't about sticking up for Microsoft, I've been an ardent user for 30 years and know their products well, but I'm sick of the constant and constantly growing security updates for everything, it's costing me a lot of money now when using a dial-up connection which takes up the majority of any time I have online, broadband is simply not an option, the local lines are too crap!

John

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

WinXP with ZoneAlarm pro and Firefox

Never needed anything else, don't visit any naughty sites

 

I NEVER update if my computer is fine, most updates are bs IMO

 

EVERYTHING in windows is switched off/disabled, firewall, antivirus, autoupdates etc

Zonealarm pro is all I've ever needed

 

If you want things to be a doddle do a reload of Windows and disable EVERYTHING

 

The only other precautions I take are I never open email attachments and all my email is in text format only on a webpage at my ISP provider

Edited By Ady1 on 13/11/2012 01:10:20

[RJWParticipant @rjw]

Ady, i don't have a couple of days to spare to bugger around reloading windows and all my software, and why would I, it's working just fine, but then it should be considering it was loaded into a brand new 7200RPM 500GB drive a couple of months back, And all unecessary services disabled!

Guys, Please, I'm not asking for Microsoft opinions, if it's your cup of tea, fine, enjoy your drink, but it's become unpallatable for me and I'm looking for an alternative!

I would like to know from current Mac users whether they're as secure and stable as they're cracked up to be, but it looks like folks are keeping their heads down, private emails would be just as much appreciated!

John

[ThsParticipant @ths]

Hi John,

I am a Mac user with limited Microsoft experience.

I do not have anti virus, spy or mal ware software installed, and never have. I have never had any viruses, but I can't say if I've been spied on. Security updates can be set to download automatically, but they don't seem to even begin to rival the frequency of windows based ones.

Recently, there was a scare regarding the Mac security system, and it would appear that perhaps Apple were caught unprepared, although I believe that this has now been attended to. I know of no-one that was affected.

MS Office is available in a Mac version. There are CAD programmes available for Macs, but they don't seem to be in the usual brands. I don't know if cnc can be undertaken with Macs (I'm sure it can, but am unaware of off the shelf software).

I've liked all the Macs I've had (4), and see no reason to ever change. I've always found using windows to be somewhat counterintuitive, but if you changed to Mac you may find the same for a while.

Worth getting one? I'd say so, but then again, I would!

Hugh.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

John,

First, I must mention that I have stuck with Snow Leopard; whereas you will presumably be buying a new Mac, with xLion.

1. Price and VfM … Macs are high price, but not expensive … You get what you pay for; in terms of both design and build quality. There is [to date] no "Windows Computer" available, so comparison is futile.
2. Software Updates … Generally speaking these are properly packaged incremental "versions" that install with minimal fuss.
3. Security …The Mac OS is based on UNIX and therefore inherently stable and secure. Also [to date] there seems to be comparatively little interest from the Black Hat brigade.
4. Applications … Again; generally speaking, these share a common User Interface with a good "Look and Feel".
5. Microsoft Office … Installing this on my Mac was the worst mistake! … It is a complete Mongrel, even in its latest version. The interface is neither Mac nor Windows, and the functionality does not match the Windows version. Worst of all; it broke Adobe Photoshop!! [the old PPC version, running under Rosetta on an Intel Mac].

I use both PC and Mac on a daily basis … One out of neccessity, the other by choice.

Please send me a message if you need any further info.

MichaelG.

[chris jParticipant @chrisj]

Posted by RJW on 13/11/2012 01:28:48:

Ady, i don't have a couple of days to spare to bugger around reloading windows and all my software, and why would I, it's working just fine, but then it should be considering it was loaded into a brand new 7200RPM 500GB drive a couple of months back, And all unecessary services disabled!

Guys, Please, I'm not asking for Microsoft opinions, if it's your cup of tea, fine, enjoy your drink, but it's become unpallatable for me and I'm looking for an alternative!

I would like to know from current Mac users whether they're as secure and stable as they're cracked up to be, but it looks like folks are keeping their heads down, private emails would be just as much appreciated!

John

Simple answer = YES

[TerrydParticipant @terryd72465]

Hi,

I use both (MacBook with Snow Leopard, PC with XP). As Michael said, Mac for preference and my experience of stability and viruses etc are as Michaels. I use open Office for Mac with no problem but am thinking of migrating to Libre Office (free open source software by OO developers),

My experiences only – however my wife runs Windows based network at her company but uses Macbook Pro at home.

Regards

Terry

[Peter G. ShawParticipant @peterg-shaw75338]

Hi,

I am aware that this may not be what you want to hear, but please bear with me.

I also have struggled through all the various versions of Windows and am now quite happily running XP. I have seen & played with W7 & Vista and am not impressed. I have also read about W8 and am even less impressed. Furthermore, Microsoft will (understandably) be withdrawing support from XP in 2014 and Microsoft's own tool tells me that my system will require updating to accommodate W7. As a final point, I understand that DOS & 16bit program support is also being withdrawn from W8.

XP works absolutely fine for me. True, I run a weekly virus and system update and check using a variety of programs, but now that I've got it down to a fine art, I simply set it going and then walk away and do something else. I cannot remember the last time that I know I was attacked by malicious software – maybe my firewall and anti-virus are doing their job. I do not get crashes unless I have been poking about. I seldom have to reboot, and then it is usually only because one of the antivirus etc programs has been updated and requires a reboot. I also dissuade programs from calling home, automatically looking for updates etc – this is done when I say so, not when the machine wants to do it. In short, my system does what I want it to do, when I want it to do it.

I also have a DOS program which works fine under XP.

My equipment is a pair of laptops, one for main use, one for backup. Plus the usual other stuff.

Now, I object strongly to having to discard software that does what I want. I also object strongly to having to discard hardware which works fine and which does what is required simply because Microsoft and/or other providers will not provide software to operate this hardware with later versions of Windows. (I have recently had to scrap an old but working scanner which would not work under W7 and swap a printer for which there was no suitable W7 software. Fortunately, I was able to swap it with one that did have the appropriate software.) For what it is worth, it is my belief that at some time in the future, due to the ever diminishing earth's resources, we will all have to make equiment last a lot longer, hence manufacturers of both software and hardware will be required to support equipment for much longer as we, the human race, simply will not be able to afford the scrapping of otherwise serviceable equipment.

My choices therefore are to spend lots of money on upgrading, stick with XP essentially forever, change to Macs, or slowly move over to Linux. Upgrading or changing to Mac will cost a lot of money and require the scrapping of perfectly good equipment. Sticking with XP will eventually run the risk of anti-virus etc software becoming incompatible with XP (I have already experienced this with Windows 2000). I have therefore decided that slowly, I will move over to Linux and whilst this will be a whole new learning curve, I do have perhaps 2 years in which to do it, and the cost will be nil. In fact, the main problem I will have is finding replacements for Paint Shop Pro, (possibly The Gimp), Design Cad, and the DOS program – but there is a chance these latter two may work using Wine or equivalent. I already use Firefox, Thunderbird and Open/Libre Office all of which have Linux versions.

Whilst I know that this is not what you wish to hear, perhaps you should consider taking charge of your machine, eg restrict what it can do on its own, ie phone-home, set up a dedicated regular method of updating (I'm sure that you could possibly manage a week or three without updating and without running inordinate risks), and long term consider slowly moving to Linux.

Unless of course, you absolutely wish to abandon the concept of the PC.

Regards,

Peter G. Shaw

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

Do Mac's suffer similar endless cycles of updates and scores of hidden service connections calling home?

—-

Zonealarm Pro stops all that secret squirrel stuff dead… which is why Vista was designed to reject it

XP is the best all-round Windows setup IMO, covering everything from DOS to WIN7 and controllable by the user

Foreign governments like Brazil have gone for open source stuff like Linux because they don't want US designed spyware, (windows, Mac etc) on thier government computers

[blowlampParticipant @blowlamp]

I'd say get a Mac if you fancy one.

They're no more secure than a PC, but probably less likely to be targeted, due to their smaller user group, but from what I've seen they're just as good at hosting viruses as any other internet connected device.

I just wonder how much real difference you might see with your dial-up connection though.

The eye wash comes from certain companies that have it in their best interest to sell you the next version, with their software tending to promote a feeling of unease by constantly warning you that the web page you've just gone to looks dodgy and that the file you've just download may contain something they haven't seen before etc.

Where would they be without the virus writers?

Microsoft Security Essentials doesn't do that on any of my systems, it just does its stuff unobtrusively and costs me nothing. Microsoft has to provide something to safeguard their Operating Systems – or they'd soon be out of business, due to the vandals out there.

When a new virus is released, non of the intended targets are immune, no matter what protection you may have installed. So whichever platform you plump for, you can still be at risk and still be a host if you choose not to install security updates.

Martin.

[chris jParticipant @chrisj]

Posted by blowlamp on 13/11/2012 11:52:49:

So whichever platform you plump for, you can still be at risk and still be a host if you choose not to install security updates.

Martin.

Indeed that is correct, what I would add is that the security updates come as a reaction to new visuses, if you are unlucky, it's too late.

I would say it like a battlefield out there, not clicking links etc is really good practice as is staying away from dodgy sites !!. Best of all is why have a PC when it's a bullet magnet (almost exclusivly targeted by viruses) get a Mac and stay out of the firing line without any alterations.

[ZiggarParticipant @ziggar]

I switched from the hell that was Microsoft based just about 6 years ago now. I only wish i had done it sooner. I haven't had a single problem since, whereas with a pc there was always something going wrong or playing up or not working properly in some way or other

it took me about a week to get used to the OS. the hardest part for me was getting used to the preferences [finding where everything was] and the menus. You expect some things to take you ages to work out but in fact they take you minutes [such as sorting out networks]. That for me was the comparison between the two. MS makes you jump through hoops and across flaming coals to make some things happen. In OSX the same things are done with just a click or two.

Mac OS updates are few and far between and are quite painless, simple and relatively unobtrusive. Some of them may be quite huge, but you can always delay and download at a more convenient time to you. You never get forced to complete an update like you do with MS.
I DONT have any MS software installed on my machines now and nor will I ever again. there are many ways to skin cats and most of them are far better and much less painful than the MS way.

For office type software there are many free options that rival the MS offering, and also many paid options. All offer MS compatibility if you need it. The paid options are also considerably cheaper too.
The only thing i can see that MS office has to offer any more is its unquestionable MS office compatibility…..!

Once you learn an OSX interface layout, you have learnt all of them, as all programs keep to a strict layout profile demanded of them by Apple. Meaning that all menus look the same and function in the same way. Which means that once you know where all the main options are, you don't have to go searching for them when you use another program from another publisher. They are always in the same place. It makes life so much easier.

I dont use an anti-virus every day. Dont need one yet. There are 1 or 2 problems out there floating about. All trojans. No known virus. But if your just bopping about the internet doing normal everyday things then you'll be just fine. if your downloading cracked and dodgy software every day then you might get caught out. But even then you'll probably be OK as the threat is minimal compared to MS based machines. Compare 5 or 6 threats on Mac OS to the 100s of 1000s of threats on a MS based machine.
I do though have a virus scanner installed that I run every now and then when I remember. Like I will now, now that I have remembered that I have it installed But it will come back with nothing found. That Im pretty sure of.

Initial outlay for an Apple product is fairly high compared to a cheap MS based machine. But for that you get a machine that works. A machine that has everything you need [barring software]. And Id say a stress free life, because my life certainly has been far simpler since I dumped MS software and cheap generic PC hardware.

in the 6 years that I have had an Imac, I have watched as my MIL has bought one for her own use [she used to be petrified of a PC but now uses her iMac like a pro], she also bought 3 iMacs to replace the MS based machines that they used in their business because of this. The changeover went smoothly, including the purchase and changeover [major step] of accounting software from MS based [Quickbooks] to a company that actually gave proper helpful and useful support when asked [unlike the supposed Intuit support]. And quite a few friends around the country have also bought Macbooks and iMacs and dumped MS and have said that they are so glad that they did that they too wished they had done it sooner rather than later. Not one of them is missing any MS software and has found comparable alternatives to anything that they used regularly.

All of this is based simply on my usage of Apple products over the past few years. No guesswork or speculation. Nor am I a fanboi or a fanatic. I use Firefox as my main browser and I use Apple mail as my main email client. 99% of all webpages and the internet in general work as it should [except this site which doesnt even work properly even when its working as intended !]
All of my software updates are done as soon as they appear and none have given me any trouble.

A little long, sorry about that, but at least you get the picture.

Id say get one, and don't look back

[John CoatesParticipant @johncoates48577]

Why not just install Linux Mint on your exisiting laptop?

It's the best version I have found and I've been using Linux since 1996. My HP laptop broke and after swapping motherboards I put Mint on instead of the previous Vista. It found everything including the wi-fi which other versions of Linux struggled to set up out of the box with no human intervention. I just turn it on and go. Updates occur every three or so weeks.

As stated earlier Mac OS is built on Linux (not Unix as stated, they bought out a Linux distro) so why not use Linux if you don't need Mac specific software

We have Mac's at home (iMac and Macbook belonging to my stepson) and I find them very unintuitive and hard to use. Stuff just doesn't work logically. I use a WInXP machine all day for work and Linux at home and can interchange between them seamlessly. Mac's need your brain re-wiring. And when things go wrong (which is very rare I hasten to add) they are very hard to fix usually requiring a full reinstall.

If you like Windows but are annoyed by what you are experiencing then keeping your hardware and changing your OS seems the best option. You can try a live CD to test that Linux Mint recognises and uses all your hardware too

John

[Russell EberhardtParticipant @russelleberhardt48058]

My advice would be, save your money (or spend it on tools for the workshop) and try PCLinux OS running on your PC. I have both my computers set up to dual boot giving me the choice of Windows or Linux and haven't booted Windows for six months or so.

Liux is based on Unix just like MacOS so doesn't suffer viruses like Windows. Being a true multi user system the security was built in from the start, not bolted on later like windows. I agree that Ubuntu gets a bit of getting used to but if you choose a Linux distribution with the KDE desktop you will find it similar to Windows. One such distribution is here. It comes with a full Office suite, photo editor (GIMP), and much more already installed and there are thousands of programs available (free) from the repository. You can try it before installation by running it from the CD before installing. When you install you can install it as dual boot alongside Windows and you will be able to access all your existing files from Linux.

For CAD there is a Linux version of DraftSight available, also free.

Any questions just ask.

Russell – no connection other than being a satisfied user for four years.

[blowlampParticipant @blowlamp]

Ziggar.

Could you enlarge on this please, as "A machine that has everything you need [barring software].", doesn't seem like you could do much with it? Can you get a Mac with a printer port that will run Mach3?

My cheap and super reliable Windows boxs have all come with a ton of useful software within the OS itself. The additional software that I need, I've bought myself (or got free, such as Open Office), but most of it isn't availble on other platforms.

Maybe you could give us a few specifics about the "hell" you've been through with Microsoft?

Martin.

[jason udallParticipant @jasonudall57142]

Sort of off topic BUT…Might not the solution be sort out the broadband problem ( which would still be a problem to MAC/unix /linix etc.)..broadband via mobile?

Is it available ? Is it cheap enough?….you can even run sw on your phone to make it your wifi router/modem..( battery life?)

Just a thought.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Here is an interesting article about the origins of OS X

MichaelG.

[Another JohnSParticipant @anotherjohns]

My boss kept asking me to port my 3D rendering SW to his Mac.

So, I did. Before I knew it, it was the end of the Linux and Windows computers in my workspace.

Yes, there was some headscratching, but the move was the best thing I could have done for my sanity.

I'm now back to Ubuntu for LinuxCNC on computers in my workshop, but OSX is still the OS of choice for my general usage.

FWIW;

Another JohnS.

[RJWParticipant @rjw]

MichaelG, ChrisJ, Terry d, Ziggar, and ‘another JohnS’, Many thanks for your very useful comments, this is the sort of info I need to help me decide whether to jump to a Mac or not, and it’s looking very likely that I’ll be giving it a go,

I’ve been trawling Macbooks and iMacs, and 2007 era 17” Macbook Pro’s can be had for under £500, so they're reasonably affordable to give it a fair trial without blowing the bank, I’ve also been offered a 2011 iMac with 28” monitor, wireless keyboard and mouse, in superb condition for £730, plus I’ll get a good allowance against it for my redundant laptop, don’t know if these sound good deals, but they appear about the norm.

John.

[RJWParticipant @rjw]

PeterG, I too dislike dumping perfectly good working kit, you would not believe the computer stuff I've got hoarded here, such as a desktop tower with brand new motherboard, CPU and Ram (running XP), which I may use as a firewall, I still have my old desktop tower which I built 20 years ago, incidentally also running XP SP3, which now sports max Ram, an overclocked and fairly rare AMD CPU which is faster even now than some quad core Intels, a good quality AGP graphics card with plenty of RAM which even now can open double the number of images in half the time in Paintshop Pro than my laptop which has a core2 duo CPU, 4Gig of system Ram and a dedicated graphics card which can draw on system Ram And a 4 Gig flashcard used as a dedicated Readyboost stick! It never goes online Ever, I transfer files via a 1TB backup drive!

As for taking charge of my computer, I’ve been doing just that for over 30 years!

The first thing I open when my computer reboots is 'Task Manager' which is then set to show processes for all users, I then systematically shut down all unwanted services and programmes (despite some of them being unchecked under startup in 'System Configuration' (msconfig), I've also disabled all unnecessary services in …erm 'Services' including all Server, remote access and P2P entries, unfortunately some of them have to be reactivated to use my dial-up modem which is software based!

I've also disabled all automatic software updates except my antivirus and Windows, only a fool would disable those because as has already been said, the virus that will get you is the new kid on the block for which no definition has yet been written, I use Bitdefender Internet Security which updates hourly, which then brings up those programmes which call home …………. where do you think those AV definition writers find out about new infections but the user pc's which are set to send home 'anonymous' data …….. unless you've opted out like I have of course ……. but have we eh!! we may well click a radio button saying No, but do we Really KNOW we’ve opted out!

If you dig down into your firewall programme, you will find a network activity monitor somewhere, so if you think you've nailed your pc down tight, go take a look, it'll damn well shock you to see just how many connections are being made, and the majority through Windows services!

! I used a 'T' mobile 3G dongle for a short time in France , a Very short time as it happens, because it dumped an entire and expensive 200 megabyte top up in 15 minutes, I didn't even have a browser open and I've no idea where the data was being transferred to or from!

Trust me, I've taken charge my computer Very well and for more years than I can remember, and a lot more carefully than the vast majority of users and with good reason!

The updates causing the grief are Windows and my AV programme, I killed windows update in Services, but the bugger started downloading them through another service despite this, and I found the connections in the network activity section of my firewall, this is Big Brother gone mad and it pisses me off Royally that Microsoft can willfully circumvent my actions to disable their updates, they may be for my own good, but i would like to do them when I say so, not them!

John

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