Hieroglyphics on a Wehlen & Co clock face

[Sam StonesParticipant @samstones42903]

Thanks Roy,

Your advice is most welcome and much appreciated. I have a faint memory of a member telling me that some time ago. Was it your good self?

Can I presume that moving the 'collet' in this case is how the pellets (anchor?) would rotate on the arbor? I can only see this as requiring removal of the mechanism, and (perhaps) setting it in an upright condition on the bench or similar.

With declining patience, increasing clumsiness, and only an office desk, removing the mechanism has lost its charm.

Thanks again,

Sam

 

Edited By Sam Stones on 17/08/2019 22:39:09

[Sam StonesParticipant @samstones42903]

It would be helpful if I could close this thread with a clear conclusion. However, despite the many useful comments, links, and various ideas, there is still no clear resolution.

I certainly found it an interesting excursion with several entertaining distractions. It has been a clear learning curve for me. I’d never heard of rubrication, ashler walls, and until I pulled the clock apart, I hadn’t realised that the dial was enamelled. Sorry Michael.

There were questions as to whether Gustav Paul (& Co) Wehlen was one person, a father and son, or brothers. The company, listed as importers, raised other questions. Were they also clockmakers, did they just assemble the main parts, or did they just sell them? Some of the marks on the back of the dial appear to be a close (colour) match to the hieroglyphs on the front. Could this be coincidental? The same substance (paint or ink?) and flourish appear to link the letter ‘G’ of Gustav and the ‘9’ of the number 9664.

Having seen some of its development in the plastics industry, I never realised that the pad method of printing was so old. Closer images reveal certain unrepeated irregularities suggesting hand painting, guided by some addition device, ‘ … and nerves of steel … ‘.

In closing and assuming that the clock is a middle-of-the-road standard, could it pass as a French marble clock?

My thanks to all eighteen of you for your input.

Sam

Edited By Sam Stones on 03/09/2019 01:11:27

[Sam StonesParticipant @samstones42903]

Are my eyes deceiving me but is that a square arbor going into a round hole?

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Sam Stones on 03/09/2019 01:18:00:

Are my eyes deceiving me [ … ] ?

.

I think they are, Sam

MichaelG.

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[Nick ThorpeParticipant @nickthorpe64546]

I have been interested in French marble clocks for about thirty five years and I haven't seen those markings on a dial before. Whelen was probably a wholesaler and the movement would have been made in one of three or four areas in France. The movements are of particularly high quality and a wonderful example of early mass or volume (French 'moyen' production techniques.

Seeing your thread a while back I emailed a gentleman who knows a lot about French marble and other clocks, but he hasn't replied and I fear that he is unwell.

I would suggest that you can definitely call your clock a French marble clock and it is a good example of its type.

Regards, Nick

Author 'The French Marble Clock, NAG Press, 1990

Edited By Nick Thorpe on 03/09/2019 07:37:49

[Sam StonesParticipant @samstones42903]

A bit further to the right, Michael.

It was the hole through the pallet piece which looks round. But on closer inspection, what I'm seeing could be a lead-in chamfer.

How curious too that the edges of the square have had their corner removed, yet appear sharp in the hole and beyond.

Nick, many thanks for your valued input. From now on, the clock will be treated with even more respect. I intend to lean on the local library to locate/purchase a copy of your book.

As before, many thanks to members for your interest and help.

Sam

PS Please remind me to blow the dust off before moving in for a tight shot

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

My apologies, Sam

Presumably this is the region of interest:

[ignore the little < at bottom-right please, I'm watching the Parliamentary debate on iPlayer]

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As you will, I think, see: the rouned corners continue the basic diameter of the arbor …

I believe that the sharp cornered section is bigger because it was hammer-forged square[ish] before being finished to size. … A fine piece of 'metal-bashing' !!

Regardless of appearance; I expect the hole for that arbor is square in section, and slightly tapered.

MichaelG.

[Sam StonesParticipant @samstones42903]

Yes, that's it Michael.

I did wonder if the corners of the square were a continuation of the diameter. A clock/watchmaker showed me how to hammer out a pivot oiler from a tiny piece of wire was my first experience of forging at that level.

Impressive work especially if the hole is both square and tapered.

Finding too many bent (cotter?) pins around the assembly, the thought of a complete strip-down to find out, is no longer an attraction.

Maybe I will one day.

Sam

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Sam Stones on 03/09/2019 22:50:34:

[ … ]

Impressive work especially if the hole is both square and tapered.

[ … ]

.

It probably starts life as a slightly tapered round hole, that gets corners cut into it during the fitting process:

If I can find a description of the technique [above and beyond 'in the usual manner'] I will get back to you.

MichaelG.

[Sam StonesParticipant @samstones42903]

It is twelve months since I opened this thread, so I thought it appropriate to provide some sort of closure.

Several things have happened. In particular have been responses from specialists from both the BHI and the AHS.

Here for reference are the main photographs that I provided for their examination …

Here [in italics] are some of their responses. They are in no particular order nor have I mentioned the names of the people that were so very helpful …

‘The important thing for the clock dial is that G. P. Wehlen was a Freemason. He was initiated in 1867 to the no. 511 or 752 Zetland Lodge, meeting in Fleet Street, and initiated again in 1882 to the no.1969 Waldeck Lodge, meeting at Freemason's Hall.’

It was also suggest that… ‘the clock was either G. P. Wehlen's personal clock, or was supplied by him to one of his fellow masons.’

Further, it was suggested that … ‘the hieroglyphs are the equivalent initials from an ancient alphabet, that the members of one or other of these lodges might have had to learn as part of their masonic study or ritual’.

In the same reply was the comment that … ‘not being a mason myself, I don't know how much the rituals vary between lodges, or whether if the particular lodge no longer exists (or if the information is too closely protected) perhaps nobody would be able to confirm’.

It was suggested that … ‘from the writing on the reverse of the dial, that G. P. W. ordered it personally from a dial painter whom he knew well and generally used in his business. If he had it made to celebrate his masonic initiation, then it might date from 1867 or 1882, and possibly the type of clock can be dated to one of these years?’

Their guess suggested 1882, but they weren’t sure about marble clocks.

Further information offered was …

‘Gustav Paul Wehlen was a jeweller and clock importer. He also appears in directories as a seller of electroplate ware. He seems to have had several fairly grand London addresses concurrently.

He was born in 1838 in the Duchy of Holstein as Johann Paul Gustav Wehlen, the son of a watchmaker Friedrich Christopher Wehlen.

Married 14.10.1871 at St. George's Bloomsbury to Frances Balls, born in Colchester, daughter of William Balls, Gentleman.

Died 26.12.1890 at 20 Hyde Park Place, Bayswater, the home of his watchmaker brother George Wehlen.’

Another reply included … ‘It is our opinion that the clock was originally meant for the far eastern market and that Gustavus Paul Wehlen, who is listed in the 1881 census as a clock importer, imported the clock before putting his own name on the dial.’

And … ‘the pale marks above the name we believe are possibly Chinese characters which were subsequently overwritten by Wehlen when he imported the clock.’

Thanks to all who contributed to this thread.

There it should rest.

Sam

BHI = British Horological Institute

AHS = Antiquarian Horological Society

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