crane uprate – where would you add some metal ?

[Nigel Graham 2Participant @nigelgraham2]

Besides, the hire-cost for the very occasional heavy-list may well be lower than the materials and electricity involved in modifying an existing hoist – certainly lower than repairing a broken machine-tool.

'

I'd add only that if you need carry out lifting operations that any shackles, eye-bolts/nut and slings are the proper ones for the task, and are used correctly. No slings frayed, knotted, over sharp edges or forming legs at > about 90º; no dynamo eye-bolts for angular loads; no shackles that are distorted or have pins not their own or replaced by bolts….

It's not worth make-shifting lifting-gear unless you can be really sure of what you are doing and test each stage as you go; and to be honest, using proper lifting-equipment is very often easier than make-shifts.

Nor are they particularly expensive – certainly not as expensive as a dropped lathe. Or as one lifted by a sling of correct type but apparently knotted (never knot lifting slings) and round its spindle – reassure us Stuee, that you didn't really do as your picture unfortunately implies!

If you need make up rope slings or rope block-and-tackle, be sure of your materials and of your knots and splices.(An eye-splice is inherently stronger than a knotted bight, and more compact, but harder to make correctly.)

'

I have built a travelling-hoist for my workshop, but from chain-block to load is all proprietory lifting-gear, and I am very well aware that I could not design the hoist and rails mathematically, nor give it any more than a very rough load-test. Its heaviest loads to date were an Elliot 'Progress 2G' bench-drill with the table removed, and the body only of a Denbigh H4 horizontal-mill; but I watched everything very carefully for any signs of distress while raising the load the first inch or so above the floor, and when traversing the assembly. It intended uses are manipulating quite modest loads as a helping-hand rather than brute machine-tool moving.

[Mike PooleParticipant @mikepoole82104]

I would recommend just getting a bigger hoist if larger loads are a real possibility. Increasing load capacity tends to grow the whole device and use thicker material and larger pivots and fasteners. As with tuning a car everything needs to be updated, brakes, suspension, the body, the clutch, the wheels, the driveshafts and so on. I notice that no one has volunteered the redesign required to uprate the hoist, probably because it would be quite a lot of work and liability for any suggestions could lay with them. Remember that this is a widely used forum and you may not be the only one doing any suggested modifications. For everybody’s peace of mind it would be best to go with the overwhelming opinion to use it as supplied and within its stated limits. I hope you don’t feel everyone is just being negative but are concerned that you continue to enjoy your home workshop. I once saw a half ton chain block used to lift a 2 ton robot, no one got hurt but the chain block was only fit for the bin.

Mike

[Former MemberParticipant @formermember12892]

[This posting has been removed]

[Nigel McBurney 1Participant @nigelmcburney1]

I have a 1 tonne engine crane,the fold up type,it is useful but cannot reach a lot of jobs due to the width of legs when folded out,its not very good loading full size stationary engines onto their trolleys,though it can lift loads into estate cars ,vans and trailers and will not reach over a large lathe such as a Colchester as the legs hit the brake safety bar,though the legs will go around most milling machines,to get heavy loads onto the table or removing the vertical head off a turret mill. I have aquired a hook with swivel so that loads can be rotated (carefully) I watched a web video where someone had to load a large billet of steel on a lathe of around 8 inch centre height,the right hand moveable leg was left in its "park" upright position the othe leg fitted around the LH side of the headstock and the billet was loaded easily to the chuck, looked silly and dangerous but the crane was only lifting around a tenth of its max load and on the video the crane did not tilt to one side as I expected. I had a thought ,why not extend both legs as per normal and use a longer extendable jib,thats the bit of the jib thats usually painted black, so that I could lift a heavy chuck or faceplate onto the lathe spindle ,and the did not foul the lathe, so I tried it a 15 inch longer extension allowed me to lift a a 21 inch face plate onto a triumph lathe,the rear end of the crane did not look like lifting and was stable. Ok if care is taken and relatively light loads ,its just that I am too old to lift a big faceplate. For most of my lifting I use 10 and 30 cwt Felco chain hoists ,they are industrial types and can be overloaded by 50% only snag is that a decent beam is required, A pallet truck is useful at times,though requires a flat smooth surface when shifting with heavy loads . The hoist to avoid is the lever type Pulift, safe for pulling along the loads horizontally,but can let when lifting /lowering vertically,

[garyParticipant @gary44937]

nigel graham, could you please explain why it is not ok to lift a lathe of that size by its spindle

[larry phelan 1Participant @larryphelan1]

As so many others have said DONT EVEN THINK ABOUT IT !!

If ever there was a case of letting sleeping dogs lie, this is it !

A trip to Rehab is worth while if only to see the results of silly undertakings.

Some of the things people do ???????????!

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Nigel G looking closely at the photo the sling appears to be wrapped several times around the base of the headstock and then passes up through the bed with one end of sling passing either side of the spindle, not lifting by the spindle.

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

To join the chorus saying DON'T do it!

Because

1 ) It may no longer be safe. Cracks could appear at the edge of any welds that you make.

Any increase in one part of the structure will mean that the stresses in other parts will increase, possibly to the point of failure.. So everything would need to be strengthened.

If it fails and someone is injured, who ever made the modifications would be liable.

2 ) Not really practicable. Adding depth to the inner part of the job, might be possible BUT not to the outer,part since that it would prevent any adjustment of the position.

You have no assurance that the ram would be capable of lifting the increased load.

So, again DON'T!

The easiest, and safest way to lift heavier loads is to buy a higher capacity crane.

Howard

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Nigel Graham 2 on 09/02/2021 10:58:28:

… Or as one lifted by a sling of correct type but apparently knotted (never knot lifting slings) and round its spindle – reassure us Stuee, that you didn't really do as your picture unfortunately implies!

…

Looking closely at the picture Stueeee is innocent of that crime, but there is another potential 'avoid' in the photo:

It's lifting a lathe with a sling whilst it's bolted to the stand. Lifting both together puts a lot of unusual stress on the lathe's bed and feet. Cast-iron is weak in tension, which is what the stand does to the lathe during the lift. I doubt the bed would break, but it might bend or twist. Or the stand might be damaged.

Less risky to take the lathe off the stand first, move the stand on it's own, and then replace the lathe.

Dave

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

OK, only two posts even possibly suggesting modifying it, neither of which should fly. A stronger cylinder might be tempting (for the operator to add) – with it so easy, then, to lift a too-heavy object – and the second (which seemed to be a more likely suggestion to modify) forgets that swivelling wheels can cause a tip-over if turning – these things are sold as hoists, not travelling cranes. At full load, I would only be using it as a hoist, if at all possible (lift the engine and and move the vehicle is safest). Movement is restricted to fore and aft for a very good reason!

[Nigel McBurney 1Participant @nigelmcburney1]

I had one of those plain bed Smart and brown lathes,the sub bed is heavy I admit ,welded 1/4 inch steel plate ,now a precision lathe of that type should NOT be removed from its sub bed,the top of the sub bed is machined level and the lathe is aligned and carefully fitted to it. You will find that a lathe bed of that precision is not soft cast iron as we know it ,but an alloy cast iron which is strong. and can e lifted carefully in one piece.I once scrapped a J &S surface grinder,the top table on these looks slim and fragile,try hitting it with a 14 lb sledge, the hammer just bounced off,amazingly strong.Thats what you get from good UK built machine tools.

[Liam CookParticipant @liamcook40712]

For what it's worth I'm an engineer, I design things for a living. I'm not mechanical but I have some thoughts.

1. Don't do it unless you really really know what you're doing and you have no other option.

2. For the cost… a bigger, more able crane can be had for not a lot less, please consider this

That crane, you have no idea why its rating is only 200kg, and you dont know the stress' going through each part of the frame, so you have no idea where it might fail which means you can't say you've beefed it up in the right areas. In short, you have no idea what the basis of safety is and it could fail unexpectedly. And this is before we starting thinking about fatigue, about peak load stress, about the fact its a mobile crane and dynamic stress.

I'd either buy a bigger one and be done with it, or build one from scratch, but in typical engineering fashion, it would be over designed to hell 😀

[Nigel Graham 2Participant @nigelgraham2]

Jason, Dave –

Thank you for putting my mind at rest! I had enlarged the screen 4 times but it still wasn't quite clear.

I must admit I'd missed the point about lifting the cabinet via the lathe though.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Looking at the crane I think it's designed to fail close to the ground at the rear.

The side struts and front wheels are suspended from the rear cross-bar and wheels by two bolts, circled in black. This construction is much weaker than resting the struts on top of the cross-bar because this way round the bolts can pull through the holes.

I think the weakness is deliberate: if the crane is overloaded the bolts break through the top of the cross-bar and the whole rear of the crane drops an inch on to the ground, where it rests safely. At this point it's very obvious the crane has broken and most people would proceed with caution!

I guess the rest of the crane is designed to the same common safety factor. To take more weight the hook, chain, beam dimensions, pin joints, welds, axles and ram would all need to be upgraded. That is rebuilt as a bigger crane.

Anyone care to try breaking one to see if I'm right? (Please don't!)

Dave

[Sam Longley 1Participant @samlongley1]

If it were to fail I would expect the rear castors first. That would put side strain onto the jib & cause rapid twisting & rotation causing miss alignment of the ram. the jib section would no longer be square to the load & twist further allowing further rotation & then bending failure & tipping as the load swung outside the limit of the feet

So i would look at better wheels then a couple of side stays to support sideways movement & twisting of the vertical jib section.

Possibly bolt a cross stay to the feet to increase width to prevent undue tilting sideways & fit the supporting stays to that

However, if one has only a single job & one does not even know what it is going to be, then the exercise seems pointless. Hire a more suitable tool

Edited By Sam Longley 1 on 09/02/2021 19:05:08

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

When the crane is loaded, the short cross bar between the legs will be subject to torsion, while the bolts retaining it to the legs, and those at the top and bottom of the the tie (Between the rear cross bar and the back of the semi vertical beam ) and the pivot for the jib will all be in shear.

The only beam that will be most weakened by the drillings for the bolts will be the cross beam at the rear. This is the only part where a hole is through the vertical face, which is the more important part of the box section beams.

The flat upper and lower faces of the beams contribute far less to the vertical strength than the vertical faces

The upper and lower faces prevent flexing in the horizontal plane, and so should be less highly loaded in a device intended for lifting..

BD^3 / 12 and all that.

The main thing is that the OP takes notice of all the advice saying "DON'T"

Howard

[StueeeeParticipant @stueeee]

Posted by not done it yet on 09/02/2021 14:07:57:

OK, only two posts even possibly suggesting modifying it, neither of which should fly. A stronger cylinder might be tempting (for the operator to add) – with it so easy, then, to lift a too-heavy object – and the second (which seemed to be a more likely suggestion to modify) forgets that swivelling wheels can cause a tip-over if turning – these things are sold as hoists, not travelling cranes. At full load, I would only be using it as a hoist, if at all possible (lift the engine and and move the vehicle is safest). Movement is restricted to fore and aft for a very good reason!

The OP's crane presently has very similar fixed casters on the front to the arrangement on mine when I bought it. Like ,mine, they point outwards at all times. As a result the crane is extremely difficult to move with any kind of control even when unloaded. I believe that the only reason that these cranes have these fixed casters at the front is to reduce cost. Certainly there are other more expensive cranes that are supplied new with swivel casters front and rear. -and by coincidence a very similar handlebar to the one I welded on to mine-

Crane with swivel casters

I have on occasion been forced, when there are no other means, to use my crane to transport machines or other big items with them loaded on the crane. But the only cause of a tipover would be that all or some of the load weight is outside of the footprint of the four casters. By lowering the load to just above ground level, paying attention to the Jib extension length, the weight outside the footprint situation whilst shifting the crane can be avoided on any of the reasonably level going where you would be using such a crane under any circumstance.

In my photo you can see that I am loading my 'new' S & B Model M onto a pallet truck , this was a necessity to get the lathe where it needed to go, but even with the C of G of the lathe pretty much in the middle of the pallet truck tines, moving the lathe this way was more precarious (in my view at the time) than using the crane which was/is too wide to manoeuvre it to its new home in my quite crowded workshop.

[StueeeeParticipant @stueeee]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 09/02/2021 13:58:57:

Posted by Nigel Graham 2 on 09/02/2021 10:58:28:

… Or as one lifted by a sling of correct type but apparently knotted (never knot lifting slings) and round its spindle – reassure us Stuee, that you didn't really do as your picture unfortunately implies!

…

Looking closely at the picture Stueeee is innocent of that crime, but there is another potential 'avoid' in the photo:

It's lifting a lathe with a sling whilst it's bolted to the stand. Lifting both together puts a lot of unusual stress on the lathe's bed and feet. Cast-iron is weak in tension, which is what the stand does to the lathe during the lift. I doubt the bed would break, but it might bend or twist. Or the stand might be damaged.

Less risky to take the lathe off the stand first, move the stand on it's own, and then replace the lathe.

Dave

The bulk of the weight is being borne by the multiple turns of the lifting sling around the headstock, no weight is being taken by the spindle and not a great deal by the bed itself. Like my other S & B lathe (Model A) , these machines are substantially built, I wasn't expecting any issue, and there wasn't any. Lifting a complete machine with at least some of the weight taken by the bed and the rest by the headstock casting is the recommended method by some manufacturers. This is how the rigger lifted my 'big' lathe when I bought it home:

The shifting blokes load cell made this machine just shy of 2.5 Tonne, so there's some weight being taken by the bed.

The Model 'M' lathe is a late model which has clearly not had a great deal of use; something I can be reasonably sure of as well as the original paint being little worn, it came with the factory spec sheets with tested runout etc. for the machine. When I installed it at my workshop, they are still good figures.

Edited By Stueeee on 09/02/2021 20:44:08

[Roger BestParticipant @rogerbest89007]

Another qualified engineer voting for "don't do it".

My main argument is stability, there will be a little bit of safety factor on a static lift, and its probably been tested moving on a nice level and smooth floor, but cause it to twist or tilt and all bets are off, all the forces get very large and that safety margin disappears.

Quite frankly its barely fit for purpose as-is, I suggest you enjoy its economy.

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 09/02/2021 18:14:27:

Looking at the crane I think it's designed to fail close to the ground at the rear.

The side struts and front wheels are suspended from the rear cross-bar and wheels by two bolts, circled in black. This construction is much weaker than resting the struts on top of the cross-bar because this way round the bolts can pull through the holes.

I think the weakness is deliberate: if the crane is overloaded the bolts break through the top of the cross-bar and the whole rear of the crane drops an inch on to the ground, where it rests safely. At this point it's very obvious the crane has broken and most people would proceed with caution!

I guess the rest of the crane is designed to the same common safety factor. To take more weight the hook, chain, beam dimensions, pin joints, welds, axles and ram would all need to be upgraded. That is rebuilt as a bigger crane.

Anyone care to try breaking one to see if I'm right? (Please don't!)

Dave

If any of the three bolts inside SOD's circle fail the sloping upright is no longer tied down, all the load will go into torsion of the other cross member which will probably fail, and the load will fall to the floor, hopefully not on the OP's foot.

I used to design lifting equipment as part of the day job. As others have said if you want a bigger lift, buy a bigger hoist, or even better hire one unless you want to use it a lot

[Bob n AboutParticipant @bobnabout]

Engine cranes are and should be designed to fail around the arm ram joint or locking pin for the arm extended. The load should fall within the crane footprint, no bolts either side should fail first as it will have a tendency to throw the load out to one side and topple the crane. The reason a crane can have such a low lift weight is with the arm fully extended, all crane advertised load is with the arm fully retracted. NEVER modify lifting equipment, or substitute parts unless that is your day job in which case you won't be asking on here.

If the load is so heavy and you are just moving it, chock up the load and get skates under it. The original post never said much about the load, how heavy, or much heavier than the crane rating, or how high the lift needs to be.

After a heavy lift or buying secondhand, always inspect the crane for paint for cracking or flaking, any deformation around pins and fasteners. The truth is we mostly estimate the weight we are lifting and I suspect a few of us, my self included have gone into our reserve margin on occasions. Be safe and have a plan for things going wrong.

[noel shelleyParticipant @noelshelley55608]

Castors on the rear are a necessary evil but if you have castors on the front it will become VERY dangerous and difficult to control. I would hope that the hydraulic cylinder has an overload valve that would prevent more than the design load being lifted, – though I doubt it !

It's JUST fit for the load it was designed for and NO MORE. If you need to lift a heavyer load get a bigger machine. As others have said, do not try to alter this machine, it will be unsafe. Noel

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

As Noel says I would have though they should be designed to" fail" at the ram long before structural failure, simply by the rating of the ram only being able to lift the quoted SWL plus a bit of give and preventing an overload. Hence why I mentioned the ram early n in the thread.

Anyone got one to see what is written on the ram?

[StueeeeParticipant @stueeee]

Posted by noel shelley on 09/02/2021 23:56:05:

Castors on the rear are a necessary evil but if you have castors on the front it will become VERY dangerous and difficult to control.

Did you follow the weblink I put up in my previous post? Engine crane with swivel casters It would be surprising that this company, who sells to professional users would be selling an inherently dangerous product. Certainly if the crane in question was deemed unsafe at end use in a commercial garage or workshop, the HSE would take appropriate enforcement action.

[Nigel McBurney 1Participant @nigelmcburney1]

I have the one tonne folding crane,it worked ok for some time ,then I went to recover a stationary engine,so I laid the folded up crane on the floor of the trailer,and drove about 50 miles,when I got to the site the seller had a forklift so that was used to load the engine, when I went to use the crane again some time later the ram would either lift about half way and then fail or would not lift at all,the ball valves inside the ram were not sealing,and depite flushing out the ram and trying to remove the balls which were heavily staked in position,I finally decided it was easier to buy a new ram/pump assembly for just over £100 no doubt there was swarf or dirt inside the pump assembly right from manufacture and 100 miles of bumping around in the trailer had shook up this rubbish , Of course these cranes come in a box but do not get the shaking that it got in the trailer,so if any one wants to take their crane on a journey,take the ram off ,and keep it upright in your towing vehicle. Getting back to the main subject of this thread modifying or overloading these cranes has a further risk,consider also the value of the load being lifted ,drop a decent mill,lathe ,or stationary engine ,the resulting crash could wreck the load which may be ten or twenty times the cost of the crane.

[Author]

Posts