Chucks

[IanTParticipant @iant]

Just as a comment, I'm often surprised how little people seem to use their faceplates. They are very useful devices to have and can often solve a problem that would be hard to set-up & machine otherwise.

I generally agree that a three jaw would be the best choice for an absolute beginner but if I could only have ONE chuck, it would most certainly be an independent four jaw. I don't think it's that hard to get work roughly centred in one, a simple centring device (wiggler) could be made (so a DTI is not absolutely necessary) and of course, I can do so much more with it (eccentrics, facing, off-set drilling, second operations etc.)

Regards,

IanT

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

I think that the increase in the number of people with small bench top mills has reduced the use of faceplates and also to some extent the 4-jaw. Before they became available the lathe was often the only machine in the ME's workshop so it had to handle a far greater variety of work and machining operations which needed the faceplate and 4-jaw and vertical slide.

Out of interest I just looked through my photo album for the little flame licker that I did a couple of weeks ago, 100 odd photos and the 4-jaw only used twice, once for some offset work which could have been done by packing the 3-jaw and once to hold a bit of wood that happened to be square, could easily have shaped it to fit roughly in teh 3-jaw as it was only to screw a disc of metal to.

[Brian NormanParticipant @briannorman50523]

Its certainly interesting reading all your comments although I am a bit confused now. The lathe I am referring to is the Taig/Peatol. Both chucks are on their price list at the same price, the 3-jaw is described as self centering, steel body with soft aluminium reversible jaws, the 4-jaw with reversable heat treated steel jaws. Spare sets of the soft aluminium are also available. Hope this helps.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Brian Norman on 22/05/2017 20:51:11:

… although I am a bit confused now. …

I'm not surprised Brian!

It seems that those who were trained professionally favour starting with a 4-jaw chuck, whilst the amateurs think it's better to start with a 3-jaw. How confusing!

Or perhaps it makes it easy. Unless you're going to be trained by an expert, start with a 3-jaw. No driving lessons are needed to work a 3-jaw chuck. It will get you started without any aggravation.

Later on, you will almost certainly discover that you need a 4-jaw as well. Then you can take time out learning how to centre work in it. youtube has videos showing how it's done, or you can ask on this forum. In short, you have to repetitively adjust each jaw individually. It's a skill and skills take practice to learn.

Dave

[Brian NormanParticipant @briannorman50523]

Thanks Dave, I think thats the way I shall go!

Brian.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

I could be cruel, and say 4-jaws are favoured by people who get a smug sense of self-satisfaction from using one.

My bog standard Zither 3-jaw is concentric to a thou, and that's fine for most jobs I do, and I know when I need the 4-jaw, which isn't very often.

Mostly when T need concentricity it's something like a gear wheel blank, which I typically turn at one setting (so the chuck doesn't matter) and mount it on a turned in place mandrel for cutting the teeth.

Neil

[Robin GrahamParticipant @robingraham42208]

Cripes! Soft aluminium jaws? OK, it's a small lathe, but aluminium jaws? I withdraw my vote for the three-jaw! Perhaps someone who knows better will contradict me, but I'd have thought they would get roughed up in next to no time. I suppose that's why they list replacement jaws for the three-jaw, but not for the all-steel 4-jaw.

Rob

[Nick_GParticipant @nick_g]

Posted by Brian Norman on 21/05/2017 13:44:00:

Hi, I intend buying a small lathe t

.

Hi Brian,

You don't mention if you are experienced with a lathe or not.?

As a relative 'newbie' myself with about 2 1/2 years since I started this it's still reasonably fresh in my mind.

So if you are new to this I (personally) would buy a 3 jaw chuck, some good quality tooling, some various material types and some cutting oil and start practicing turning. Spend countless hours doing this. Preferably to loud music. But basically just turning metal and making swarf.!!

You will have good sessions doing this and bad ones. – No time doing this is IMHO wasted.! You will learn more when things go wrong than when they go right. (perhaps just my view)

But what more than anything is still fresh in my mind is that cheap tools are expensive tools as it's often money wasted and false economy.

Also consider if it's possible to purchase the lathe at a reduced price without any chuck and put the money towards an ER32 one and a set of collets from the likes of ARC

Nick

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Robin Graham on 22/05/2017 22:43:26:

Cripes! Soft aluminium jaws? OK, it's a small lathe, but aluminium jaws? I withdraw my vote for the three-jaw! Perhaps someone who knows better will contradict me, but I'd have thought they would get roughed up in next to no time. I suppose that's why they list replacement jaws for the three-jaw, but not for the all-steel 4-jaw.

Rob

The peatol has three chucks available as standard accessories, a 3 and 4 jaw with replaceable aluminium soft jaws and a 4-jaw with steel jaws.

[James AParticipant @jamesalford67616]

Posted by Robin Graham on 22/05/2017 22:43:26:

Cripes! Soft aluminium jaws? …………………………… I'd have thought they would get roughed up in next to no time.

Rob

My first small lathe, back in the 1980s, was a Peatol. I had both the 3 jaw and the 4 jaw chucks.

I found this very much a problem and seemed to spend most of my time truing the jaws until I had a pair of steel jaws made for it. Then, it was fine.

Personally, I struggled to get anything centred in the 4 jaw chuck. From memory, the threads for adjusting the jaws were very coarse, but as I have not used any other makes, that might be common.

James.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Having the ali jaws will solve one of the problems that people say a 3-jaw has as you will be able to reverese work and keep it concentric as they can be treated like soft jaws.

Also easy enough to tap a couple of holes in the soft aluminium to screw a set of steel faces too if you are worried about then deforming too quickly.

Many a good bit of work been done on a taig / Peatol so don't knock them until you try them.

[Iain DownsParticipant @iaindowns78295]

When I bought my lathe 18 months ago, it came with a 3 Jaw and Simon (SPG tools and an engineer by trade) said the main thing I'd need would be a 4 jaw. So I bought one.

I've not used it. The three jaw is fairly rubbish (or the lathe or the spindle I bashed – or <blush> the operator), so I've done a fair amount of turning between centres.

I had a few goes at setting stuff up in the 4 jaw, but basically abandoned the effort each time.

I don't say this is the right approach, and after this debate I can see that it may be worth spending some hours learning how to clock in the 4 jaw.

The advocates of the 4 jaw appear to be mainly people who have been rigorously trained in its use (whether they want to or not) and I expect they are correct that it's the better choice.

But if you want to just turn metal I expect the 3 jaw will lead to more initial progress.

Iain

[NJHParticipant @njh]

 

 

JA

Well you have been given lots of (varying!) advice!

Mine is get the lathe with the 3 jaw and get used to using the machine. Whilst doing so save your pennies and buy a 4 jaw independent as soon as you can.

I do accept that you COULD do all your work in a 4 jaw independent and you will, in time, need one – but you can get cutting metal straight away with the 3 jaw, gain experience and have fun! What you don't need now is additional difficulties!

Norman

ps I have 3 jaw s/c, 3 jaw Griptru, 4 Jaw s/c , ER collet chuck and 4 Jaw Ind chucks for my lathe. The 3  jaw s/c gets most use.

 

Edited By NJH on 23/05/2017 11:03:08

[Tony Pratt 1Participant @tonypratt1]

I fully support Norman, I was professionally trained & do know how to set up a 4 jaw but for a beginner go for a 3 jaw, you will in general get a lot more use out of it.

Tony

[martin perman 1Participant @martinperman1]

This thread was interesting to read, I did an engineering apprenticeship and was taught and used a four jaw chuck, another thing we had to do was prove we could use hand tools before we were even shown a machine, we had to cut, file, and finish a cube and in the centre another cube which had to fit it’s hole from which ever side was presented.

Martin P

Edited By martin perman on 23/05/2017 11:28:27

[Andrew TinsleyParticipant @andrewtinsley63637]

When I got my first lathe, maybe 40 years ago, I had both a 3 jaw and 4 jaw chuck. I nearly always used the 3 jaw, finding setting up a 4 jaw to be the work of the devil.

I can now quickly and easily centre a 4 jaw chuck BUT I would much rather use my 3 jaw if at all possible! I think those that recommend a 4 jaw as an "only" first chuck are doing a disservice to the total newcomer. Most beginners jobs can be done with a 3 jaw. At this point, the beginner has enough to worry about without having to set up a 4 jaw.

Andrew.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

And lets face it a new Myford comes with a 3-jaw as standard, no 4-jaw. They can't be wrong

[Phil StevensonParticipant @philstevenson54758]

As a wee bit of an aside, wood turners use more or less identical 4 jaw self centering chucks to metal turners. To produce an off-centre turned piece of wood, the jaws and be put in the chuck in the "wrong" order, eg 3412, 4123, etc rather than 1234. Not for the beginner or the faint-hearted but it's effective (ideally needs tailstock support etc). I don't suppose this technique is used much for metal ….

[MWParticipant @mw27036]

Posted by JasonB on 23/05/2017 11:40:51:

And lets face it a new Myford comes with a 3-jaw as standard, no 4-jaw. They can't be wrong

I think it's got something to do with how quick it is to let a potential customer try out a lathe on a demonstration, you wouldn't want a showroom full of myfords on 4 jaw chucks.

In fact, why don't we ask warco, chester, sherline, axminster, Clarke, taig etc, to reconsider their age old wisdom of selling 3 jaws with the machine,

explain to them that they'd be doing their customer a favour with good habits regarding to accuracy and component diversity, and see if they buy it. 

 

A lot of people know about 4 jaw self centering chucks, but come to think of it, I've only seen a 3 jaw independent chuck just once in my life. 

Michael W

Edited By Michael-w on 23/05/2017 13:00:20

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 22/05/2017 21:42:03:

It seems that those who were trained professionally favour starting with a 4-jaw chuck, whilst the amateurs think it's better to start with a 3-jaw. How confusing!

I trained professionally and never came across this silliness. Both in the apprentice training centre at the car factory and the toolroom machine shop, and at tech college, three jaw chucks were the norm. Four jaw was only used for something special, either high precision concentricity of an existing diameter, or gripping an odd shape. Insisting that apprentices use a four jaw for all jobs may be a good learning exercise but is a big waste of time really.

Only time it could be an advantage is on large lathes where a chuck change involves using a block and tackle etc so you tend to leave the four jaw on the lathe and get adept at quickly truing up round jobs but usually the material is sufficeintly oversized that rough truing with the tool bit or a bit of chalk rather than a clock suffices. Or a smaller three jaw chuck was gripped in the four jaw for general jobbing work. So not relevant to mini lathes etc.

I'd be a bit cautious about those aluminium jaws on the three-jaw though. Never come across that, other than special soft jaws, for everyday use.

[MWParticipant @mw27036]

Posted by Hopper on 23/05/2017 12:59:33:

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 22/05/2017 21:42:03:

It seems that those who were trained professionally favour starting with a 4-jaw chuck, whilst the amateurs think it's better to start with a 3-jaw. How confusing!

I'd be a bit cautious about those aluminium jaws on the three-jaw though. Never come across that, other than special soft jaws, for everyday use.

I think it starts to become a bit scary with the larger chucks to think that the ally jaws probably don't have a very good grip on it. (and therefore more liable to fly out!).

Michael W

[Nick_GParticipant @nick_g]

.

3 jaw / 4 Jaw. It all depends on what you intend to make.

For me :-

1st project was a James Coombes engine. – Used a 4 jaw quite a bit on that.
2nd project was a No.4 – Used the 4 jaw a bit but not as much as for the JC
3rd project was a Hoglet – Used the 4 jaw very little.
4th project (98% finished) Hit and miss engine. – The only thing from memory I used a 4 jaw for was to drill and tap the valve push rod and some work on the cylinder head that could have been really done on the mill.

I have 2 4 jaw chucks. A 100mm and a 150mm. There have been times away from model making when I have used the 150mm as my 125mm 3 jaw was not quite big enough.

As I said previously if I were to buy a 'mini lathe' I would probably have an ER32 chuck fitted to it most of the time. Or if I wanted to be really posh like that Jason bloke I would buy a set of 5C collets with a morse taper to fit straight into the spindle. But he has a larger machine so uses a chuck not the spindle taper. 

Nick

 

Edited By Nick_G on 23/05/2017 13:31:51

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Although I'm quite happy and capable of using my 4-jaw when needed I'd be interested to know what sort of accuracy those that can set their 4-jaw "in a minute" with a bit of chalk, fag paper, end of tool, etc can get. I'm assuming its is less that 0.0005" TIR as that is what my 3-jaw gives which you are all saying is inaccurate.

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Posted by JasonB on 23/05/2017 13:30:32:

Although I'm quite happy and capable of using my 4-jaw when needed I'd be interested to know what sort of accuracy those that can set their 4-jaw "in a minute" with a bit of chalk, fag paper, end of tool, etc can get. I'm assuming its is less that 0.0005" TIR as that is what my 3-jaw gives which you are all saying is inaccurate.

You're a lucky man indeed, and that chuck is worth treasuring. I've got mine set up to where it is within .002" most of the time and reckon that is pretty good going. Seems to suffice for almost everything I do. I would say I use the three jaw for at least 75 per cent of jobs. No need for repeatability – I just machine everything in one set up . If needed, I can screw the chuck off with job in situ, but can only think of once that I did that to check a fit of the job into a part too big to lift up on to th elathe.

[Nick_GParticipant @nick_g]

Posted by Hopper on 23/05/2017 13:44:14:

You're a lucky man indeed, and that chuck is worth treasuring.

.

And I happen to know he paid only £100 for that 125mm chuck brand new.

Nick

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