Chinese Electric Cars

[MuzzerParticipant @muzzer]

Posted by Bob Brown 1 on 14/08/2017 11:55:29:

Norway has/had adopted a system where new electric cars come with no purchase tax or VAT which is probably something that can be done in Norway as they have a surplus in fossil fuels they sell and most of their power is generated by Hydro and a small population. How long that situation is sustainable is a question but I do not think you could take the Norway model and replicate it here in the UK as the loss to the revenue stream would need to be made up else where. It is not all rosy in Norway as people are using their EV rather than public transport causing congestion and ferries are suffering a loss of revenue as EV's are free.

Yes, it's amusing (bemusing?) to hear Norway being held up as an example of a possible route for the UK to take – not just in EVs but also after we throw ourselves off the cliff. Unlike us, they used the proceeds of the North Sea oil and gas reserves to build their pensions and health services. Norway's national debt is about 32%; UK's is about 92%. Their health service may not be #1 in the world (only 3rd in Europe) but it's one of the best funded. It's not very comparable…

Murray

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

Two things.

One – A correction. Stats quoted by Robert Llewelyn on Fully Charged were incorrect. Apparently it is 42% ' with a plug'(so doesn't include non-plug in hybrids?), and 22% fully electric.

And two – I've certainly not held up Norway as a possible route for the UK to take. It is clear that after 2040, there will be fewer purely ICE cars (as a percentage) in the UK. All I wrote was that the UK government would be aware of the changes occurring in Norway.

Sure, there will be unintended hiccups along the way (a bit like the Germans producing more PV generation than their grid could cope with – leading to negative electricity pricing, on at least one occasion), but I daresay the Norwegians will overcome these small problems (like removing EVs from free travel on ferries?). Question might arise that new ferries will be electric as well?

[VicParticipant @vic]

"The allure of the gasoline automobile is somewhat perplexing. Its widespread use has worsened dependence on foreign supplies of oil for many countries, inducing price spikes and fuel shocks and transferring wealth to petroleum producers. Increased reliance on the car has threatened the vitality of urban centers, required the construction of massive roads, highways, and parking structures, degraded communities, and socially excluded individuals that do not own vehicles. Automobile accidents cause more than 1.2 million deaths per year and injure 25–50 million more, making them the third largest contributor to death and injury in the world. Interstate highways, avenues, streets, and boulevards are noisy and often congested, and gasoline vehicles spew a variety of unhealthy pollutants and particles into the air, contributing to acid rain, ozone depletion, and climate change"

**LINK**

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

All of which are near to 'invisible' to the individual. Even road death for the majority is what happens to other people.

There is generally a fairly major disconnect between personal perception and remote data sets.

regards Martin

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Martin Kyte on 15/08/2017 08:45:54:

…

There is generally a fairly major disconnect between personal perception and remote data sets.

regards Martin

Very true Martin. It's strange but true that personal perception often misleads. When it comes to change, most people overestimate what's likely to happen in the near future and underestimate what's likely to happen in 15 years. We have very peculiar notions of risk. Heavy smokers are afraid of spiders, but not of cancer, bronchitis and heart disease. People loyally support football teams despite their repeated incompetence, not to mention political parties. Bad habits are hard to break even in the face of overwhelming evidence that they're harmful.

My theory is that the human brain has two components and they are always jostling for control. The emotional half is tuned to deal with surprises like being attacked by a bear, when an instant decision is required. The intellectual half is tuned to recognise patterns; it learns from experience, analyses, considers options, and plans ahead. Given time to think it will out manoeuvre the emotional part. Unfortunately we go through life with both sides swapping in and out subconsciously and it's far from clear which is in charge. This leads to situations like: 'I dithered and missed my chance to take charge' and 'I wish I hadn't slept with the wife's sister'.

You would expect that engineering decisions would always be based on evidence and cold logic. Apparently not: the experimental evidence is that a young lady in a swimsuit will persuade grizzled and cynical experts to buy an inferior product! For that reason science and formal technical evaluation both take rigorous steps to reduce bias.

For myself, I mostly use the thinking part of my brain to justify the stupid decisions made by the emotional half. I like to think I'm a logical man of the world, but close examination suggests much of what I actually decide was self-deluded. Oh dear…

Dave

 

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 15/08/2017 10:33:18

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 15/08/2017 10:33:58

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Did a 320mile round trip up to Worcester and back yesterday and spotted 3 Tesla S cars, none of which was hanging about. Then when I was leaving the Oxford services noticed they were fitting a whole run of Tesla and possibly other charging points. With investment like that in charging points it is going to help sell their cars.

Also noticed on You-tube that there are quite a few DIY EV conversions, maybe a good project for our Editor Neil to do and write up, must be more exciting than making another shunter

[MuzzerParticipant @muzzer]

You'd struggle to insure a home made vehicle here in the UK. In the US and Canada it seems to be much simpler, probably to do with the tradition of making and running hot rods etc. When we made battery EVs in the UK back in the 1990s, they were for commercial operation, with homologation, type testing etc but we ran the development vehicles on trade plates. I think you will find there have been very few amateur EVs here.

Murray

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

Going back a long way to Mike's comment about Perkins having a gas turbine powered truck running in the 70s, and as a deviation from the thread.

I worked for them from early 1973 until retiring in late 2003, and never heard of such a vehicle.

Over the years that I knew the company (starting contact with regard to Fuel injection Equipment, in 1964) Perkins looked at many different types of prime mover, from attempts at a constant horsepower diesel, two strokes and so on, but the conventional four stroke diesel engine was always the commercially and technically most viable.The only gas turbine which they produced was before my time, as a four man portable fire pump. The gas turbine was made under licence from Solar. (We have one in our Perkins Heritage Group collection)

By the 1970s, the nearly constant horsepower Differential Diesel Engine had been abandoned, so that was unlikely to be what he heard. (Strange to hear the engine speed falling as the vehicle accelerated!)

What Mike may have heard whistling was an engine pressure charged by a "Comprex" unit.

This was investigated as an alternative to the turbocharger, consisting of a rotating tube nest, alternatively connected to the exhaust and induction system. Again, found to be unsuitable.

Returning to the thread, pure electric vehicles are non polluting at point of use, but how is the electricity to be generated if the vehicle is to be truly non polluting?

For local use, they are the way to reduce air pollution (ignoring any pollution from the production of,  and assembly of, components)

The emphasis has to be on development of batteries capable of providing adequate range for cars, and more importantly for goods and large passenger carrying vehicles. AND the resulting vehicles have to priced such that they are affordable. UNLESS everyone is prepared to change their lifestyle quite markedly, which I very much doubt.

Howard (now minus typos)

Edited By Howard Lewis on 20/08/2017 21:30:35

[Bill MullParticipant @billmull]

The gas turbine trucks mentioned may have been a Leyland product.
They had a few in experimental fleet use in 1968/70.

On Electric vehicles, it may be of interest to know that battery commuter trains operated in Dublin from 1931 to 1949 approx.
They had a range of 136 miles and operated at 55 mph. They were recharged at night using surplus hydro generated electricity .
Drumm Battery trains. https://youtu.be/p9jFA3fKG6c p class=”SmallText”>Edited By Liam Mulcahy on 20/08/2017 22:39:46

Edited By Liam Mulcahy on 20/08/2017 22:40:25

Edited By Liam Mulcahy on 20/08/2017 22:43:42

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Howard Lewis on 20/08/2017 21:25:58:

The emphasis has to be on development of batteries capable of providing adequate range for cars, and more importantly for goods and large passenger carrying vehicles. AND the resulting vehicles have to priced such that they are affordable. UNLESS everyone is prepared to change their lifestyle quite markedly, which I very much doubt.

My daughter's generation already have a very different lifestyle from mine when I was that age… we can't assume these changes will happen to us old stick in the muds, they will happen to our children

Neil

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Liam Mulcahy on 20/08/2017 22:39:18:

On Electric vehicles, it may be of interest to know that battery commuter trains operated in Dublin from 1931 to 1949 approx.
They had a range of 136 miles and operated at 55 mph. They were recharged at night using surplus hydro generated electricity .
Drumm Battery trains. https://youtu.be/p9jFA3fKG6c

.

Thanks for that, Liam … I had never heard of Drumm

Very impressive !!

**LINK**

https://nitum.wordpress.com/tag/inventor-of-the-drumm-traction-battery/

MichaelG.

[V8EngParticipant @v8eng]

Posted by JasonB on 20/08/2017 17:05:30:

Did a 320mile round trip up to Worcester and back yesterday and spotted 3 Tesla S cars, none of which was hanging about. Then when I was leaving the Oxford services noticed they were fitting a whole run of Tesla and possibly other charging points. With investment like that in charging points it is going to help sell their cars.

 

Also noticed on You-tube that there are quite a few DIY EV conversions, maybe a good project for our Editor Neil to do and write up, must be more exciting than making another shunter

 

I pass through Oxford services fairly regularly, it's certainly a good place for Tesla spotting. There has been a row of charging points at the end of its hotel section for a long time (now I know what all the work is about).

Lusted after an 'S' since I saw the first ones, no way to afford it though.

Edited By V8Eng on 21/08/2017 00:48:05

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Howard Lewis on 20/08/2017 21:25:58:

…

UNLESS everyone is prepared to change their lifestyle quite markedly, which I very much doubt.

…

We may not have any choice in the matter! I have very strong reasons for maintaining my lifestyle for ever. It's very sad but the aging process alone will soon put an end to it. My wishes in the matter count for nothing.

The lesson of history is that nothing lasts. Instead people adapt to the opportunities and disasters of their time. All I know for sure is that the futuire will be different. At the moment it looks as if it will be dominated by energy shortages and the consequences of global warming. That might be completely wrong. Having advanced technology is good reason for optimism. However, it's not a panacea, for example technology won't save us if the earth is struck by a large meteorite or from a gross political mistake.

Dave

[VicParticipant @vic]

Technology has been changing people's "lifestyles" since the industrial revolution started. The public don't have a choice in this change, they never have. In the not too distant future the only private car ownership will likely be in museums, in Europe at least. I'm sure there will be some redneck Americans running cars on corn oil or similar for many years to come though.

[Tim ChambersParticipant @timchambers76147]

An interesting take on EV's.

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

Just looked at the Leaf. Wow it's expensive. A lot of people even in the country only need to do a 20 mile round trip to town, and as a step up from waiting at the bus stop in the rain only need the feature set of an Austin 7. When the local hospital closes they might need to do a 50 mile round trip to a bigger town but that should help keep the local facility open or reopen the railway line. So some joined up thinking is needed here – a long term government plan.

Re charging all these vehicles. More people might get solar panels installed if the planning constraints and gold plating requirements for FIT were sorted out.

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

Up until the earth quake in 2010/11 in Christchurch(NZ) we had what were known as a shuttle bus route around the CBD, this was run with locally built electric bus'ses, they had a Capstone gas turbine for battery charging. I don't recall what happened to them, I think they may have been sold.

Ian S C

[Bob Brown 1Participant @bobbrown1]

Made for an interesting read regards to charging EV's **LINK**

[Ex contributorParticipant @mgnbuk]

Just looked at the Leaf. Wow it's expensive.

Even more so when you consider the initial depreciation if you buy new – my brother bought an ex-demo top of the range Leaf (with outright purchase of the bigger battery & the "faster" charger) around a year ago. IIRC the car was under 6 months old with 4000 miles covered at the time & it cost him £14K. Again IIRC, "list" was something like double that !

A year and 9000 miles further on & he thinks it's wonderful. He uses it for work & has covered up to 300 miles in a day – range is up to 135 miles on a charge & the motorway services fast chargers put in an over 80% charge in under 30 minutes for £6. The built-in satnav shows suitable charging points for longer journeys. Last time we spoke he reckoned the 9000 miles had cost him directly under £60 (by using FOC charging wherever possible).

As my daily commute is 92 miles round trip, only Teslas have a "workable" range for me to avoid "range anxiety" & I can't afford one of those without a lottery win.

Nigel B

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

As my daily commute is 92 miles round trip, only Teslas have a "workable" range for me to avoid "range anxiety"

It would only require a 13A mains connection, while at work, to completely avoid that? Maybe not possoble now… but in the future….

[V8EngParticipant @v8eng]

It is possible to travel from Park and Ride into York City Centre by Electric Bus, we've done that. (handy for the NRM).

York has also recently started trialing an Electric double decker.

Link to the story of that here. **LINK*

Edited By V8Eng on 21/08/2017 17:04:11

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

They are installing lots of charge points at Burtonwood Services. As this is only about 10 miles from the end of the motorway I can think of 3 alternatives. Firstly it is for those who are not quite going to make it home, second it is for those who forgot to charge up before setting off, or perhaps it is for nipping out and getting a free charge so you can go back home and power your house off the free lecky.

Don't take offence scousers, I married one

[Brian Sweeting 2Participant @briansweeting2]

I see in the newspaper today the electrical suppliers are saying that the average UK household will be unable to recharge an electric car in a reasonable time because the main fuse is undersized.

Or, you can charge it but not boil a kettle or heat water at the same time.

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

That's rubbish. Smallest main fuse has been 60A for years. I put more into storage heaters overnight than would go into a car. Even easier when you realise most people will only be doing a top up. Long distance commuters like me and Nigel might have to move job or house, or maybe think the lower cost of travel an encouragement.

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

because the main fuse is undersized.

Debunked as unrealistic. Possible theoretically, but practically a non event. Cars don't charge at 11kW unless on a 3 phase supply (max take is 7.4kW on a single phase supply) and most houses are now fitted with100A fuses to the grid connection. So just a load of waffle, really.

I think we have an 80A fuse – that will cope with 18kW quite adequately. – and one of our kettles is 1kW while the other is 2.6kW, so where is this 'problem'? Scaremongering or a lot of people who cannot work out that it is not reality?

Yes, we can make tea, or even cook an evening meal at the same time as charging an EV. But most will, by another few years, have a battery as well as grid supply, I expect. That or use cheaper leccy later through the night. Those with smart meters will be paying extortionate rates for their leccy at peak times, so that will put them off a bit, perhaps.

Go on, work it out for yourself!

[Author]

Posts