British or Chineese?

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British or Chineese?

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  • #494374
    Niels Abildgaard
    Participant
      @nielsabildgaard33719

      Manual lathe users can go to heaven very cheap these days.

      Two comrades and I each gave a good month wage to buy a single Myford S7 in 1965.

      Yesterday I bought an almost complete Boxford A and a Chineese 916 for 900£ total.

      Plan is to rebuild both with the biggest possible spindle.

      It can then be answered once and for ever if UK or China made the best lathes.

      wp_20200905_006[1].jpg

       

      Edited By Niels Abildgaard on 05/09/2020 20:20:49

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      #14018
      Niels Abildgaard
      Participant
        @nielsabildgaard33719

        Lathe comparisons

        #494378
        Peter Hall
        Participant
          @peterhall61789

          Lucky man. If I tried that in my living room, Mrs Hall would have my hide nailed to a door. Best of luck.

          Pete

          #494400
          JasonB
          Moderator
            @jasonb

            So is the spindle the only deciding factor between the best lathe? Surely other parts of the machine come into it.

            #494403
            clogs
            Participant
              @clogs

              my best friend (life long)

              who is now single has 16 Norton Commando's a Super 7 and a decent drilling machine in his living room….

              the piano serve's a storage unit…in deferance to the ex……hahaha….

              #494406
              J Hancock
              Participant
                @jhancock95746

                Nothiing wrong with that, ' Heavens above' …. in the Middle Ages the animals lived in the living room too.

                #494409
                Niels Abildgaard
                Participant
                  @nielsabildgaard33719
                  Posted by JasonB on 06/09/2020 07:00:33:

                  So is the spindle the only deciding factor between the best lathe? Surely other parts of the machine come into it.

                  Everyone with paved acces to a harbour and deep pockets can buy a better lathe weighing a ton or more.

                  For pensioners it is more interesting to get maximum swarf removal within a meter width from lathe components ca 80 kg max that can be put in place by two old toads.I am one.

                  In this sector small diameter spindle replacement is the easy way to improvement.

                  #494412
                  Mick B1
                  Participant
                    @mickb1
                    Posted by Niels Abildgaard on 05/09/2020 20:19:51:

                    It can then be answered once and for ever if UK or China made the best lathes.

                    I don't think that question can – or should – ever be answered definitively.

                    NOTHING is ever perfect, nor can it be. Excellence at one part of the job invariably reduces facility at another.

                    #494417
                    Baz
                    Participant
                      @baz89810

                      I agree with Mick B1, we are all model engineers but all doing different aspects of the hobby, for what I do a Myford 7 is perfect for me, gap bed for large flywheels etc and a lot of accessories available and a small footprint for a small workshop. A mate of mine is building a very large traction engine, he wouldn’t touch a Myford with a barge pole, a large Colchester is his ideal machine, it all comes down to what you want it for and what you can afford, the best lathe is the one that’s sat in your workshop regardless of where, when and who made it.

                      #494418
                      Bazyle
                      Participant
                        @bazyle

                        Perhaps you have the opportunity to do a little initial comparison by comparing the cross section of the lathe bed, the proportions of the triangle of front shear, rear shear, and spindle. Also speed range as designed not with VFD added. then there are some aspects of erganomics, like how easy it is to engage back gear, whether the topslide fouls the tailstock, tailstock locking, provisions of the QCGB, ease of making approximate or exact metric threads.
                        other factors anyone?

                        #494428
                        Vic
                        Participant
                          @vic

                          I think a fairer test would involve a 1970’s Boxford! laugh

                          #494430
                          Len Morris 2
                          Participant
                            @lenmorris2

                            Here's one. What happens when it all goes wrong (and it will eventually)? Tool post hitting the chuck for example. The Colchesters, Wades, Langs, Bins and Berrys, Harrisons etc I ran in industry were just about bomb proof and survived no end of abuse from apprentices to skilled men.

                            I'm sure the Chinese can make excellent machines for their own industries but they ruined their reputation by some manufacturers flooding their export market with cheap look a likes made from poor materials.

                            I have several vices from Record and Parkinson. They must all be 50 years old, some with bent handles from the use of extension tubes. I was given a Chinese copy of a 6 inch record vice. The static jaw simply cracked off with hand pressure on the standard lever!

                            Good luck with your project. Do report back.

                            #494436
                            Dave Halford
                            Participant
                              @davehalford22513

                              Why don't we wait for Niels to finish his project before going into attack mode?

                              To be fair it might be useful to compare them before and after the mods. Assuming finish at different DOC will be compared using the same tools?

                              #494458
                              Bill Phinn
                              Participant
                                @billphinn90025
                                Posted by Dave Halford on 06/09/2020 12:09:03:

                                To be fair it might be useful to compare them before and after the mods. Assuming finish at different DOC will be compared using the same tools?

                                Since it's impossible to know the intimate details of the life each lathe has led to date, I think to be really fair they both need to be new machines [and having several examples of each model, not just one, to compare would make the results more meaningful]. Rebuilding the lathes simply adds another layer of unequivalence.

                                A bit like Jason, I'm puzzled how rebuilding with the biggest possible spindle can be the basis for a comparison, and left questioning whether a bigger spindle will necessarily always be better than a lathe's standard one.

                                #494594
                                old mart
                                Participant
                                  @oldmart

                                  What I fail to see is how the average lathe owner would ever be able to make substancial modifications to his machine without first having the use of a much bigger one to make the parts. An interesting project for anyone simply wishing to tinker with machines, but I have yet to see any of the OP's projects actually being used for their original purpose.

                                  #494597
                                  Niels Abildgaard
                                  Participant
                                    @nielsabildgaard33719
                                    Posted by old mart on 07/09/2020 15:29:04:

                                    What I fail to see is how the average lathe owner would ever be able to make substancial modifications to his machine without first having the use of a much bigger one to make the parts. An interesting project for anyone simply wishing to tinker with machines, but I have yet to see any of the OP's projects actually being used for their original purpose.

                                    The 180 spindle with 30mm bore described some time ago could have been made on the 180 size lathe.

                                    My wish is to inspire importers and chineese manufacturers to sell kits for upgrading and I have resently seen a complete headstock kit for a 210 lathe with 38mm bore.120£ I think.

                                    The goal at moment is to make a 50mm full bore spindle for a Boxford.

                                    Very handy for british veteran motorcycles in living room.

                                    Boxfords and Allegros (the only secondhand cars I could afford some time ago) share the trait that no tears are wept when they go to scrap.

                                    The max diameter of spindle is 160mm and length about 400mm,so should be within Boxford possible making envelope.

                                    Sketch to follow

                                    #494602
                                    SillyOldDuffer
                                    Moderator
                                      @sillyoldduffer
                                      Posted by old mart on 07/09/2020 15:29:04:

                                      What I fail to see is how the average lathe owner would ever be able to make substancial modifications to his machine without first having the use of a much bigger one to make the parts…

                                      By coincidence I'm reading ME3313 (January 1967) which encourages exactly that in an article by Martin Cleeve entitled 'Lathe Topics – Improvements to a 3 3/8" machine'. It turns out to be a Zyto.

                                      Don't read on if you believe British made hobby lathes of yesteryear were of superior quality! Cherished illusions may be shattered. Mr Cleeve starts:

                                      A majority of home mechanics who own the older type of lathe, and whose pocket will not stretch to a more modern machine, are nevertheless of a discerning nature. They may often feel dissatisfied with many of the fittings on their machine, thinking perhaps that the design and mechanical function is lacking in finesse and giving the impression that a breakdown may occur at any moment.

                                      Vague mental pictures of desirable improvements are often formed, but these seldom crystallize into reality due to a subconscious feeling that to make improvements to actual components on the lathe, or to replace whole fittings with a completely new design would be impossible because the original was made in a factory with facilities for machining not available at home. But this is erroneous thinking for the following reasons.

                                      These early lathes were built down to a price and the interest of the makers was in rapid production, not in ultimate ease of use, reliability or appearance. Even accuracy seemed to be largely superficial: if the tailstock was pointing approximately in the direction of the headstock, well that was good enough.

                                      Indeed with some old lathes I have vetted there has been every evidence that assembly has been carried out by labourers who took no pride in their work and had no knowledge of engineering whatever except a screw is turned clockwise 'to do it up.'

                                      Even the designers, in some cases, seemed to have only a vague idea of the functions of a lathe… Mr Cleeve provides another 5 paragraphs of design faults, before saying:

                                      By my remarks on the shortcomings of these earlier lathes, I do not wish to convey the impression that those who cannot afford a modern one should go without until they can… by all means buy an old lathe – but do not be afraid to modify it.

                                      Few old machines are so awful as to be incapable of making new components for themselves…

                                      So good luck to Niels, upgrading lathes is respectable. Improving a Far Eastern lathe seems admirable to me, and even an unlikely failure wouldn't be the end of the world. Some jobs need a big spindle, so why not fit one if the headstock is beefy enough? Go for it!

                                      Dave

                                      #494610
                                      Niels Abildgaard
                                      Participant
                                        @nielsabildgaard33719
                                        Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 07/09/2020 17:23:23:

                                        So good luck to Niels, upgrading lathes is respectable. Improving a Far Eastern lathe seems admirable to me, and even an unlikely failure wouldn't be the end of the world. Some jobs need a big spindle, so why not fit one if the headstock is beefy enough? Go for it!

                                        Dave

                                        Thank You Dave

                                        A sketch of Boxford headstock with standard spindle and new with 70/50mm and 160 flange for chucks.

                                        As far as I can measure the bearing boring and seals and traps and what not was made in one setup and it will be possible to put in the new main bearings and hope for concentricity.

                                        monsterbox.jpg

                                        #497086
                                        Niels Abildgaard
                                        Participant
                                          @nielsabildgaard33719

                                          I have sold the Boxford as parts and got what I payed.

                                          The simplest Boxford spindle enlargement is to put two 32910 bearings in the 72 and 76.2mm holes and make a 50mm outside spindle .The bending stiffness goes up a factor 2.5 ca.Everybody can do it and not much sport.

                                          My 918 lathe has been put on a tombstone and has been partnered with a 100£ industrial sewing machine motor of 600 watts and 4Nm torque.

                                          There is a video here and I have a feeling of it being a long and nice afaire .

                                          918 lathe and blue swarf

                                          Edited By Niels Abildgaard on 21/09/2020 18:19:21

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