ZIEHL•ABEGG Axial Fan

[OuBallieParticipant @ouballie]

Help needed connecting it up to power please.

[OuBallieParticipant @ouballie]

Neighbour gave me this fan when I mentioned that I was looking for a means of extracting the dust from the Carport, when I start doing the final grinding to get the Austin Seven's body down to bare metal.

Can it be powered without using a frequency inverter please and If so, what connections to use?

Certainly not worth buying one, as I could no doubt get 3/4 pedestal fans for the same cost.

Geoff – Making progress with the Seven at last.

[peak4Participant @peak4]

HERE might be a good starting point; I should say, I've no experience of these things myself, so if you blow yourself up, son't blame me.

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

Geoff, You don't need an inverter and variable speed wouldn't help in your situation anyway – you want 'suck my wig off' full blast anyway.

This diagram is looking helpful but wait for a bit more input. A picture with the wires and capacitor spread out or connections listed might help.

[MuzzerParticipant @muzzer]

Peak4's link (the tab where it says "wiring&quot suggests you connect L and N to "U1" and "U2" – and connect up the ground also, as it doesn't appear to be double insulated. Looks sensible to me – Germans use "U" where we use "V" for voltage.

It's a single phase 230V motor, so nothing fancy required beyond a 2 wire connection. I suspect the cap may simply be for power factor correction but am prepared to be wrong.

If you're not certain, use an RCD and make sure you have the correct fuse fitted – 3A probably enough, otherwise 5A.

[Steve PaveyParticipant @stevepavey65865]

 

U1 and U2 are the run winding, Z1 and Z2 are the start winding. The TK connections are for the thermal cut-out switch. It should have a control box to go with it. If it was mine I would try and trace the wires and check with a multimeter to make sure that the U and Z connections were, in fact, the winding connections. There may also be a centrifugal switch inside the motor housing to switch the start capacitor out when its running (but it may be that the start winding is unswitched). You should also be able to see how the start capacitor is connected – it looks as though its connected to z1 and u2.

Lots of possibilities here **LINK** – some of the diagrams show that connection L to u1 and N to u2 would be ok, other diagrams use one of the TK connections as the live, presumably so that the live is fed via a temp sensitive switch.

It looks as though your thermal switch is connected to TK and the bottom half of the U1 connector block. If that is so, and you want to use the switch, then L should be connected to TK and N to U2. If you want to bypass the thermal switch connect it as Muzzer suggests. But I'd like someone else to verify that or come up with an answer that is more authorative.

Edited By Steve Pavey on 02/05/2016 14:29:37

[Andy HoldawayParticipant @andyholdaway]

As Muzzer says, Live to U1 and Neutral to U2. If you want to use the thermal cutout connect Live to the TK connection next to the U1 connection.

There is no centrifugal switch, it's a permanent run capacitor. We use dozens of Ziehl-Abegg fans and motors at work, so if you need a copy of the actual wiring diagram let me know and I'll dig one out tomorrow. Slight bank holiday brain fade today!

Andy

[OuBallieParticipant @ouballie]

Somehow I just knew the collective would come up trumps

A big thank you ❗️👍👏

Will take another photo of cable connection Bazyle.

Yes please Andrew.

Geoff – Just a tad too windy to put the centre piece of roofing felt onto the Summerhouse roof 😫😤

[OuBallieParticipant @ouballie]

Bazyle,

Photo as requested.

Geoff – %^# wind.

[Andy HoldawayParticipant @andyholdaway]

Geoff, see the diagram below, but wiring as my previous post.

Andy

[Andy HoldawayParticipant @andyholdaway]

Just spotted the better picture of your wiring – the thermal cut-out is wired in, so either put the Live in the TK terminal next to the U1 terminal, or take the cream wire out of the bottom of U1 and put the Live in there.

Andy

[OuBallieParticipant @ouballie]

Thanks guys for the help👍

It's working and blows a gale.

Was about to design a frame to hold it, that would have done justice to the Forth Bridge, but fortunately caught myself just in time, and studying the unit soon realised that a bit of 2" sq steel tube bolted to the cowl would do the job.

Took all of five minutes, as against a day/s!

Video of fan in action.

Geoff – Now to make room for the new compressor.

[maurice bennieParticipant @mauricebennie99556]

Hi OuBallie Please take notice of the first line of instructions If you have fine dust or inflammable gases ,I do not know how much of either of these will cause problems ,but take care .I worked in a lab,one of the staff put a dead rat (killed with ether) in a fridge , Next morning opened the door and there was a very loud bang ,the fridge door landed up on the other side of the room . He was very lucky it missed him .

Best wishes Maurice.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Exploding rats!

I once came across an exploding teabag.

Neil

[John HaineParticipant @johnhaine32865]

Liquid oxygen Neil?

[OuBallieParticipant @ouballie]

Maurice,

Cheers for concern and wishes

No concentration of anything to make an explosive mix.

Too aware of that risk to take a chance.

Have adequate through ventilation if needed, but would stop at the slightest hint of it occurring in order to vent.

Geoff – New toy unpacked, photos to follow.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by John Haine on 20/05/2016 13:22:57:

Liquid oxygen Neil?

NI3

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 21/05/2016 18:59:07:

Posted by John Haine on 20/05/2016 13:22:57:

Liquid oxygen Neil?

NI3

Purple mushroom clouds!

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 21/05/2016 19:41:29:

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 21/05/2016 18:59:07:

Posted by John Haine on 20/05/2016 13:22:57:

Liquid oxygen Neil?

NI3

Purple mushroom clouds!

See Stub's post half way down this page:

http://www.model-engineer.co.uk/forums/postings.asp?th=72705&p=3

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 21/05/2016 21:41:41:

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 21/05/2016 19:41:29:

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 21/05/2016 18:59:07:

Posted by John Haine on 20/05/2016 13:22:57:

Liquid oxygen Neil?

NI3

Purple mushroom clouds!

See Stub's post half way down this page:

http://www.model-engineer.co.uk/forums/postings.asp?th=72705&p=3

Sounds like we went to the same school!

One of my teachers, who had good cause to be concerned about the foolishness of clever inexperienced boys, often gave carefully designed demonstrations that deliberately broke the rules. Adding a test tube of water to a beaker of concentrated sulphuric acid; pouring water on to a large lump of Potassium; the travelling properties of petrol vapour upwind of a candle; Hydrogen and Oxygen; NI3. About a quarter teaspoonful of the latter was tipped on top of a tin of beans. He then spent about 30 minutes telling us stories of boys who had maimed themselves with home-made explosives before tapping the tin with a stick. The purple mushroom cloud was fun, but the hole blown clean through the top of the tin can was a lesson learned.

On the downside, having seen what a chemical explosion can do, I now suspect that the potential violence of model boiler explosions is overrated. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying they would be harmless! But the amount of energy and the burst pressure must be relatively low. Has anyone in the Model Engineering community ever calculated the energy involved, or – even better – deliberately steamed a small boiler to destruction and documented the results?

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

Glad that Geoff now has the wind up!

With regard to boiler, or any pressure vessel, failures, think on the force produced from, say, 80 psi on a larger area. Would you want to be on the receiving end of even four square inches powered by 80 psi?

Looks like 320 lbsF (145KgF) And that is a small proportion of the area of even a small boiler. Add steam, under pressure, with its temperature raised, to say 170C at 80 psi, from memory. Then comes the heat energy. The latent heat of vapourisation of one gramme of water at 100C is 536 calories, which will reappear as the steam condenses, PLUS the heat liberated in cooling from 170C to 100C, plus that of the water as it cools to body temperature (from 100 to 37C) and you would have a serious scald, liable to remove skin. (Sorry about the mixture of units, but you get the message?)

A former colleague lost a finger or two when a compressed air reservoir exploded, because of oil vapour entering it, at high temperature. (Not too different from what powers a diesel engine)

For what my advice is worth, treat all pressure vessels with care. The last thing that any of us want is someone being hurt, and our hobby being labelled as dangerous.

Howard

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Howard Lewis on 24/05/2016 16:54:00:

Glad that Geoff now has the wind up!

With regard to boiler, or any pressure vessel, failures, think on the force produced from, say, 80 psi on a larger area. Would you want to be on the receiving end of even four square inches powered by 80 psi?

Interesting demo here:

blog.hsb.com/2015/04/06/sultana-boiler-explosion/

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Howard Lewis on 24/05/2016 16:54:00:

Glad that Geoff now has the wind up!

With regard to boiler, or any pressure vessel, failures, think on the force produced from, say, 80 psi on a larger area. Would you want to be on the receiving end of even four square inches powered by 80 psi?

Looks like 320 lbsF (145KgF) And that is a small proportion of the area of even a small boiler. Add steam, under pressure, with its temperature raised, to say 170C at 80 psi, from memory. Then comes the heat energy. The latent heat of vapourisation of one gramme of water at 100C is 536 calories, which will reappear as the steam condenses, PLUS the heat liberated in cooling from 170C to 100C, plus that of the water as it cools to body temperature (from 100 to 37C) and you would have a serious scald, liable to remove skin. (Sorry about the mixture of units, but you get the message?)

A former colleague lost a finger or two when a compressed air reservoir exploded, because of oil vapour entering it, at high temperature. (Not too different from what powers a diesel engine)

For what my advice is worth, treat all pressure vessels with care. The last thing that any of us want is someone being hurt, and our hobby being labelled as dangerous.

Howard

Many thanks for the analysis Howard. Your numbers and description of consequences convinces me. I hope no-one thinks that my suggestion that "the potential violence of model boiler explosions is overrated" is any reason to believe that small boilers are safe!

My comment was partly due to something overheard at the Bristol exhibition. A chap was telling a friend that a small traction engine happily steaming away was nothing but a bomb on wheels. That I doubt, at least compared with a actual bomb of the same size.

Consider what Wikipedia has to say about Nitroglycerin: "Detonation of nitroglycerin generates gases that would occupy more than 1,200 times the original volume at ordinary room temperature and pressure. The heat liberated raises the temperature to about 5,000 °C" And the same source gives the detonation velocity as 7700 m/s. That's a lot of energy released almost instantly.

So there you have it: conclusive proof that filling a steam boiler with Nitroglycerin is far more dangerous than filling it with water! I claim today's prize for stating the bleeding obvious…

Neil's link about full size boiler explosions is interesting as is this one too.

I've never heard of a serious accident involving a model steam boiler. That inspires confidence in their build quality, maintenance and responsible operation.

Cheers,

Dave

Cheers,

Dave

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