when is a precision vice not a precision vice>?

[FMESParticipant @fmes]

I needed a couple of drip feed oilers.

Scouting around the Internet I found a pair for about a tenner each and ordered same.

On receipt and inspection they very nearly got thrown in the bin as they were just not anywhere near acceptable quality wise, pressed plate off centre, sharp edges etc.

Subsequent purchase from another supplier, admittedly at nearly three times the price, realised a far more acceptable and higher quality item.

I'm not mentioning company names, but obviously the initial supplier will no longer be on my list of approved stockists, which is a shame as its a company that is regularly mentioned here as a supplier of cheaper tooling.

As previously stated in these posts a, you get what you pay for and b, a poor workman always blames his tools.

As for the main topic of vices – I picked up a Groz Super Precision 150 for £50 at a machine tool sale last year.

No complaints with that beasty.

Edited By Lofty76 on 27/01/2013 09:43:06

Edited By Lofty76 on 27/01/2013 09:44:36

[MICHAEL WILLIAMSParticipant @michaelwilliams41215]

Hi Michael G ,

For me … definitely option (2)

Thanks for that ..

But I would still appreciate a reply to my PMs of October 2012

Please look in pm's .

Regards ,

Michael W

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Lofty,

True story.

Ower Gert sells some various tools on Ebay. Because we had a trade account at Myfords she bought oilers from Myford, reboxed them and sold them on Ebay for less than Myfords retail [ just ]

At this time Myford had moved from the UK made moulded oiler and were sourcing from China and they came packaged not in Myford boxes but green and white boxes with Chinese writing on them. To be honest they were a bit crude.

Anyway one day she sold a set without reboxing them and the guy posted back.

"I want my money back, I do not want this rubbish. Please refund my money and I will go to Myfords and buy a genuine set. "

I would have loved to see his face when he opened the Myford package !!

[FMESParticipant @fmes]

Good one John,

That works both ways too.

I needed an adaptor electrical harness for my Landrover, it was about 18" long with a plug on each end.

I got a quote from LR with a catalogue number, the price was £68.80 inc vat all nicely packaged in a branded LR box.

Thinking that it wasn't that urgent, left it on the counter and went home.

Later, I found the quote with the Cat. No. on it and put a search on the net, I found the actual manufacturer in Birmingham, sent an e-mail for a quote and received a reply of £18.95 including postage.

Upon receiving the harness was surprised to get it in a sealed polythene bag instead of the LR box, but quite clearly identified with the same LR parts bin label.

Going back to the oilers, cheap version – pressed brass (?) plate, cut offset, sharp edges,.More expensive versions- which were incidentally Myford items – fully machined top and bottom housings, and just altogether much better finished.

[Clive HartlandParticipant @clivehartland94829]

Many moons ago we supplied 'V' belts for compressors, customer asks for one and we supply Shortly he comes back refusing to pay as he can buy the same belt in the local garage for a tenth of the price we asked.

I dont blame him as year on year we added 5% to all spare prices, thats how it worked then. To make a profit we multiplied all prices of spares coming in by 0.58, and that was nearly 40 years ago.

Clive

Edited By Clive Hartland on 27/01/2013 19:49:24

[alan smith 6Participant @alansmith6]

Posted by Francis Sykes on 26/01/2013 18:39:39:

Alan, I feel the need to give you some feedback on your view of equipment manufactured from the East. Your views seem apparent for someone who has only a very small proportion of knowledge over the Chinese manufacturing and engineering capability, range and culture, I'd suggest you bear this in mind when making your suppositions and assumptions relating to sourcing of items over there.

Francis,

I quite agree with you and think that your comments are also applicable to most of the people posting on this thread.

Why don`t you give us a masterclass explaining all the points that you mention, then we would all know as much as you do.

Alan

[MICHAEL WILLIAMSParticipant @michaelwilliams41215]

Can any of the great experts actually tell us what a precision vice should look like ???

Either what should we look for in a good bought one or what features to include if designing one for DIY build ???

Michael Williams

[David Clark 13Participant @davidclark13]

Hi There

A precision vice should look like the ones from Arc Euro Trade.

Precision Vice

I bought one of these a few years ago and it is excellent.

No doubt other manufacturers make similar vices but I have no experience of them.

regards David (Great Expert)

 

Edited By David Clark 1 on 28/01/2013 13:16:05

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

I think the problem may be that the use of the word Precision in DCs link refers to the style of vice not the fact it may be more precise than say a Vertex or Kurt

 

This is also sold as a precision vice

As for what we would like to see in such a vice then the base parallel to the feet, fixed jaw at right angles to that and no noticable lift in the moving jaw, this actually has pull down jaws. As to accuracy this one is good to 0.02mm over 100mm (0.0008" over 4" Also hardened & ground to HRc60 and with a 5 year warantyBut thats what you get when you pay 10 times the price.

Jason (no expert)

 

Edited By JasonB on 28/01/2013 13:26:18

Edited By JasonB on 28/01/2013 13:27:05

[MICHAEL WILLIAMSParticipant @michaelwilliams41215]

Dave , Jason ,

I'm a bit sad now – answers so far have been ok and come from competent people .

I was hoping for some more twaddle from the real Great Experts .

Seriously – the design of a good machining vice is quite difficult and they should really be seen as being like machine tool slideway systems rather than just glorified garage hold-all contraptions .

Rigidity , accuracy , repeatability , squareness and minimal jaw lift are basics but there are many more considerations .

Regards ,

Michael Williams .

[blowlampParticipant @blowlamp]

I bought a precision vise once… it turned out to be a low precision vise, but the desciption didn't make any specific claim about the degree, so I made a value judgement about what I'd bought and what I'd paid for it in relation to what else was available elsewhere at the time.

You often see this 'non-committal' kind of headline, e.g. Quality Tooling Supplies, without stating what level of quality they will actually be supplying.

Martin.

[Ian PParticipant @ianp]

Have we all forgotten what this original thread was about? So far its been read over 6000 times and has has over 90 replies most of which have nothing whatever to do with the original question.

Fizzy asked if he should have to machine something that he had just bought. Without knowing a lot more details, clearly its not possible to give an answer. He described what he had bought as a 'Machine Vice' but the thread title asked about a 'Precision Vice'. As we know 'precision' without a full specification is just a word so its up to Fizzy to decide if he want to do any work on it or not. I am not saying that Fizzy should not have asked the question, it would made more sense though if he had supplied some information so that we all knew what he was referring to.

It totally pointless for the forum members (whatever their level of expertise or greatness!) to ramble on, post pretty pictures, etc for days. I have to say (a first for me) let get back to the workshop.

Just as a footnote, I have a vice (ground all over to better than 0.02mm so it does come into the precision class) but it has no bolts whatsoever in its construction (not counting the screw)

Ian

[Chris TriceParticipant @christrice43267]

"machine vice….just bought one from reputable dealer…looks nice…every single bolt is onlt hand tight…3 thou play in jaws..had to machine it down, now very good…but should we have to????"

No. Not happy, send it back for refund or replacement. Simples.

[alan smith 6Participant @alansmith6]

Chris, may I ask whether you have returned items to suppliers that are hundreds of miles away, if so what was the result.

Alan

[Chris TriceParticipant @christrice43267]

You may ask. I simply don't buy from hundreds of miles away unless I know exactly what I'm getting. If I do, it comes from either confidence in the brand name or realistic expectations based on what I paid. Generally, I buy at shows where I can see and/or check the goods before leaving or buy from UK suppliers. If there's a problem, my contract is with the UK supplier and they're responsible for making good on faulty goods. More and more I'm keeping away from chinese or particularly indian goods because although there are undoubtedly a few good items, there are far too many sub par ones to take the risk. I'm more likely to buy good quality second hand british tooling because I use my equipment a lot on a professional basis so to me it's worth paying more and having no grief.

[Chris TriceParticipant @christrice43267]

… and if the shipping is expensive and the goods are faulty, I make it plain to the seller he'll be covering any additional shipping if he has supplied faulty goods.

[alan smith 6Participant @alansmith6]

Chris, thank you, I was just wondering if you had had the same experiiences as I when receiving goods not fit for purpose and then getting the run around and an unsatisfactory conclusion. Do you actually take your measuring stick with you to the shows and sort out the good stuff while crowds of over eager modellers are milling around you trying to get into your space?

Well I`ve tried buying the Chinese or Indian goods on Fleabay a couple of times and have been disappointed and that was enough for me. I`ve returned to my earlier practise of buying good second hand British goods on Fleabay and after over fifty of such purchases have not been disappointed.

Regarding the machine vice post by Michael W. I`ve always been a fan of Abwood machine vices but buying one without seeing a photo of the upper base part where the work is supported is a definite no-no, as they are often very pitted by drill holes created by careless workers. Sod`s law has been evident lately as I`ve been looking for a 4" Abwood for a while now and all that I`ve seen have been 6" ones!

Alan

[David Clark 13Participant @davidclark13]

Hi Alan

It took me a while to find a 4 inch Abwood at a good price.

I found a brand new one in the free ad paper for £150 so they are out there.

regards David

[alan smith 6Participant @alansmith6]

Hi Dave,

Lucky you! I used Abwood vices during my time as an apprentice, as they were fitted on most of the company`s milling machines and shapers and was always impressed by the solid quality of them. I now have three which I use in my various workshops but need another for my Raglan mill.

Alan

[Chris TriceParticipant @christrice43267]

I don’t generally over inspect what I’m buying but you can get a pretty good feel for a product based on its standard of finish. Also I’m obviously far more fastidious over something I’m going to use a lot than pay a fortune for something I’m going to use once in a blue moon. I will buy cheap where ‘it doesn’t matter’ but I’m expecting most tools to see some service so finding items pleasurable to use as opposed to frustrating is worth the extra in my personal situation.

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

I have a 4" Abwood and a 6" one kicking about somewhere,

Prefer to use the Kurts and the ones from Arc euro now, far better than the old Abwood which have no holding down correction of the moving jaw.

[Tony Pratt 1Participant @tonypratt1]

I too have a 4" Abwood which I use at home but it's not a patch on the Kurts I used in industry, they are of excellent quality and price to match! I did toy with buying a Vertex copy of the Kurt but obviously the quality will not be there!

Tony

[Sub MandrelParticipant @submandrel]

I paid £15 for a small SOBA 'precision vice' and ended up having to true up the jaws.

In contrast this one (I've only started using it recently) seems to be as accurate as I can measure, is very rigid and the finish is amazing (it looks like a mirror finish but is actually very finely ground).

Note the bronze insert for the clamp screw

My brother bought it for me for about £22 from Proops at MMEX a few years ago.

Well, at least you can't accuse me of being one of those people who never makes any swarf…

Neil

Edited By Stub Mandrel on 28/01/2013 20:19:48

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Neil,

We all know who makes swarf out of the regular posters here and who are just trolls.

[Francis SykesParticipant @francissykes95134]

Hi Alan,

I'm afraid I'll not be delivering the masterclass as requested. There are plenty of books that do a better job of explaining Chinese culture (which is as complex as any culture, perhaps more so with 1.3 billion people to cover), and I don't think I'd do it justice even putting my own experiencesinto words.

All I will say, is the range and quality of items that can be supplied from China is far greater than you have indicated. Mostly cost effective, but if you want better quality/performance, you will tend to pay more for it. I can't help but believe where a Western supplier has asked for a $2 part, they've got a $2 part. We don't get something for nothing anywhere alas.

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