Wabeco D4000-getting a lathe upstairs and first impressions.

[Nick anonParticipant @nickanon93441]

[Nick anonParticipant @nickanon93441]

Thought I would post my experience of moving of a lathe to the first floor. After ordering a Wabeco D4000 back in September, it was due to arrive in December, but Wabeco couldn't complete the order till February.

 

This morning it arrived by special courier, in a crate measuring 132cmx58cmx68cm weighing in at 110KG gross. Thanks to a brilliant courier, we got it up a double curb with the help of part of an old pine bed and two house bricks. Then he even helped lift it up a steep set of steps in to the hall way. Glad to give him a tip, if he hadn't been such a good bloke, I would of been the proud owner of a front of house plywood bench.

 

It took a good 30mins to out smart the plywood crate, leaving the lathe on a euro pallet. At this stage, the lathe was way too heavy to move any distance, even with the tailstock removed. To get round this, I unbolted the metal brackets which are screwed to the lathe, from the pallet, repositioned the lathe to one end and redrilled the holes and fastened it. This left almost half of the pallet free, which I cut off with a hand saw.

Once the pallet was shortened, it made it much easier to handle and get around a corner. Lifting the lathe without the pallet was totally impractical, because of the fragility of the enclosure and awkwardness of two people holding the bed. Between two of us, the lathe went straight up a set of 45 degree Victorian stairs relatively easily. The half pallet made it really comfortable and more importantly, safe, to get a firm hold and really didn't feel like a 70KG machine. Once off the pallet, the D4000 can just be lifted by one person(with difficulty), from the floor and up on to a 850mm high bench.

Considering the small difference in price of the D4000, when compared to the Proxxon PD400, I would say that you stand to get a substantially more robust and serious machine if you go for the Wabeco. The most important difference for me is the heavier bed and cast iron tailstock. Also, the Wabeco has properly engraved and very grippy knurled dials. The Emco plastic dials frequently stuck and were literally a total pain to move when they seized through warping with age.

 

The lathe came with a Zultra 3 jaw chuck, which I believe are made to DIN 6350 (Bison spec) and are made in Poland. One of the best things about my C5 was the Tos chuck, which still holds sub thou runout. Hopefully this Wabeco 3 jaw will give similar tolerances, although a collet chuck is always an option in the future. The PD400 came with a really nice QCTP, but the D4000 and C5 only come with a standard clamp type tool holder. If you want one of the eastern Multifix clones sold on Pro-machine tools, it's another £200+. If you take a look at the pictures, the D4000 is also covered in grease nipples for various bearings, including two for the headstock, tailstock, two on the saddle and two on the leadscrew.

 

I've got to admit that all these new features are going to take some time to get familiar with. For instance, what kind of grease gun and variety of grease would be best for these maintenance nipples?

 

Apart from the lack of toolpost, which is understandable considering the general quality of the machine, the lathe is a great improvement on all the lathes I've experienced, with perhaps the exception of the ME90, which was just as good quality, but limited by its size and power. The pictures below show the lathe on the pallet before I shortened it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited By Nick anon on 25/02/2016 00:16:17

Edited By Nick anon on 25/02/2016 00:22:16

[Nick anonParticipant @nickanon93441]

I ordered a custom made pair of workshop bench supports on Ebay, that arrived with one having both welds snapped on the cross member between the legs.  Can anyone suggest a good sturdy set of supports or bench that can handle at least 100KG?

cheers, Nick.

Edited By Nick anon on 25/02/2016 00:12:51

Edited By Nick anon on 25/02/2016 00:26:18

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

On a machine tool grease nipples are usually oil nipples

The manual should tell you the score, usually on a heavier duty machine 90+% is oil and 5+% is grease kinda thing.

At the end of the day it all makes sense once you know what gets what

Edited By Ady1 on 25/02/2016 00:43:21

[Thor 🇳🇴Participant @thor]

Hi Nick,

Congratulations with your new lathe. The manual for my 290 lathe says oil with 20W machine oil daily. I use a lever type oilcan, looks like this one.

Thor

[Nick anonParticipant @nickanon93441]

Thought that I would post an update after having owned the lathe for 3 months.

The good points and improvements over my other machines are:

1. The taper slide moves in T slots and can be positioned anywhere on the cross slide. This is a very much appreciated feature which helps set up the tool for chamfers and for accomodating different sized tooling.

2. The general quality of the machine feels very high, with smooth slides and very functional hand wheels and zero setting dials that actually move freely without moving the handles or your settings.

3. On most speeds the machine is generally very quiet.

4. The variable speed winds all the way down to 20 rpm and up to several thousand. This capacity to alter your speed to match your cut is a real bonus, that you use every day and which really helps you learn what works.

5. The chuck quality is top rate.

6. Parting off brass has been easier in this machine, compared to the Emco or Proxxon.

[Nick anonParticipant @nickanon93441]

Now on to the negative aspects of the D4000.

Overall, in comparison to my Emco C5 and PD400, the D4000 is in many respects, a poor substitute, suffering from multiple weaknesses, that in fact have made me regret the purchase. The issues that have emerged, as I've put demands on the machine, are as follows:

1. The first shock came when the bed began to scratch and dent in a very similar way to lead or soft Aluminium. On one occasion when I slid the tailstock back, several particles came away from the top edge of the prismatic bed, leaving a visible defect. The bed has progressively seemed to pick up dings and marks from no-where, despite the almost obsessive use of custom made wooden lathe boards, from day one. It is undoubtedly the softest lathe bed I have ever encountered and if it is hardened, I would be very, very surprised. If you brought the D4000 bed up against a Cadbury's Caramel that had been in the fridge, I believe that the lathe bed would mark more easily. A lightly fumbled Allen key on the Emco does nothing to the bed(I don't mean dropped, just very gently brushed against). On the D4000, it means a dent or a small chip. Considering the care that I have put in to protect it, I did not expect to have any marks at all on the bed.

 

2. The lathe is significantly less rigid than the Proxxon PD400 and even my Compact 5, which uses plastic gibs! With the saddle locked, a dti mounted on a magnetic stand, placed on the cross slide, measures 0.12mm or about 5 thou of movement, when you gently rock the topslide. This does not include any movement contributed by the saddle. A big weakness of the design is the omission of a simple gib clamp, in order to lock the slides. I have never seen a lathe without these and assumed there would be some way to do, what is, a basic need, of keeping the slides rigid when they are not in use. Last week I had a dig in during parting off 16mm 316 bar. I had locked the gib screws on the top slide and the saddle was clamped. This did little to make things more rigid. This lathe really struggles with rigidity and for that reason alone I wouldn't mind swapping it for a Cowells. I emailed Wabeco, suggesting several improvements, but have received no reply.

3. Related to the rigidity, the surface finish is awful, when you do the same operation as you've just done successfully in the Emco C5, using the same material, tool and tool post. Having measured the sloppy set up, I now understand where this is coming from.

 

4. The lathe vibrates heavily at 60% speed in the higher gear, generating a resonant shake that can be felt throughout the house.

 

5. The lack of leadscrew hand wheel is a significant omission that makes life difficult when turning simple jobs, let alone complex ones. Without the handwheel, you have to rely on the taper slide for accurate longitudinal measurements. This would be ok if the taper slide was pinned at zero. It isn't, so every time you loosen the taper slide, you must, by necessity, put an outboard mounted dti to clock it in, which takes a long time, when you've got several chamfers to cut. Even then you often end up with 4 thou tapers on 50mm long work, that you had thought was parallel. This is probably the biggest disappointment with the lathe, apart from the lack of rigidity.

 

6. The bed had several defects in the ground ways, probably casting voids.

 

7. The chuck back plate has a smaller through hole than the headstock bore, so in practice it can't pass a 20mm bar with the chuck in situ.

8. The tailstock overhang results in a heavy bias on the leading edge of the tailstock. This feels in use, to be exerting unnecessary wearing forces on the bed and tailstock, but just on the lefthand side of its base.

9. The V belt from the motor is noisy in one part of its rotation, resulting in a repetitive high pitch rustle.

10. The top slide mounted tool post stud is pressed in and pinned from the underside of the taper slide. On the other lathes that I've used, the stud was replaceable, meaning you could change tool posts and install a variety of accessories without modification. The D4000 would benefit from a standard M8 tool post stud which just unscrews, like the Proxxon PD400 or Emco C5.

 

So in summary, if I had my choice again, I'd avoid the D4000 and buy a Cowells for precision work and a used PD400 for the bigger stuff. To my knowledge, there aren't any other quality lathes out there that are made in the EU and under £3K. If I do find one, hopefully I'll Ebay the Wabeco and get a lathe that is more of an all rounder. If you are looking to the D4000 as an upgrade in capability and rigidity, you will be disappointed. Either get a PD400 or a good used Austrian Compact 8 or a Maximat.

 

Many thanks, Nick.

Edited By Nick anon on 22/05/2016 01:14:20

[steamdaveParticipant @steamdave]

I've got a Wabeco mill and at 5 years and 2 months old, the built in inverter burnt out. (The warranty lasts for 5 years). Wabeco would not sell me a new inverter, but I could have a new motor + inverter at a cost approaching £1000 ! So, I removed the blackened inverter, bought a replacement Mitsubishi from Newton Tesla, mounted it on the wall and hooked it up to the original motor. Job done.

I've expressed my disappointment on my mill to several people, including ProMachine. My conclusion is that you could probably buy 3 equivalent Chinese lathes for what you paid for yours, and we have both found out 'West German' products (more than likely produced in the east and finished off in Germany) are not 3 times better than their far eastern equivalents.

Dave
The Emerald Isle

[Brian WoodParticipant @brianwood45127]

Hello Nick and Dave,

Thank you both for sharing your experiences without rancour, the bare and well presented facts are sufficiently disappointing without the beating of chests.

I am not contemplating a purchase from Wabeco, but I have always been led to believe that their quality was superior to much of the eastern tide. How wrong that now seems to be.

I imagine you paid top dollar too for the privilege.

Regards Brian

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

I can only echo Brian's comments

It is particularly disappointing that this is Pro Machine Tools' offering.

MichaelG.

[Stephen BensonParticipant @stephenbenson75261]

Thanks for letting us all know Nick Wabeco are German and expensive I thought that would equal a good product I think you have saved me from an expensive mistake, I think I will just fit Newton Tesla motors on my South bend and Downham Borer instead.

I have a Cowells Lathe and Mill for small accurate work and I am very pleased with them, but I was thinking the Wabeco was a good buy for updating my larger machine tools.

[Håvard HouenParticipant @havardhouen58310]

I know this thread is more than a year old, but as the info here is quite disturbing for anyone that has just bought an Wabeco lathe I thought I would try a follow up question.

Nick, have been able to sort out the problems with your machine?

Even if I recognize some of the problems with the D4000 (lack of leadscrew handwheel, no gibs for locking slides), the softness of the bed and the bad alignment of the tailstock sounds very strange.

Have you ruled out the possibillity that your machine was a "rotten apple"? Could the bed casting for your machine be the problem?

Best regards,

Håvard Houen

Norway

[Martin Hamilton 1Participant @martinhamilton1]

I can confirm all what Nick is saying re the Wabeco D4000 lathe, I had the misfortune to order a new D4000 in Feb 2016 which arrived in May 2016. This is a terrible piece of kit & would warn anybody to stay well clear of Wabeco, I was so disappointed with this machine that I sold it after only 6 months at a massive loss just to get rid of this machine. To give you some idea I paid £2800 + around another £1000 for extras, I sold it to a machine dealer for £600 just to get some money back.

[MadMikeParticipant @madmike]

I have only just come across this thread. All that money and you get a pile of junk. Did either of the complainants raise the issues with the suppliers and seek a refund? If so how did they react. When buying a machine even at this end of the market perhaps a recommendation rather than perceived belief in country of manufacture is the best way. On the RH side of this page is an advert for ArcEuro Trade. They import and sell Seig machines as most on here know, but they also have a policy of not selling them until they have sorted out any manufacturing problems and agreed the quality standard required with the manufacturers. I can only speak for their milling machines as I bought one a couple of years ago. It is a great piece of kit and I am more convinced each day that I made the right decision to buy it. I machine mostly stainless steel and it copes admirably, and I "do not spare the horses" when cutting. if their lathes are half as good as my mill then they are definitely worth buying. I have no connections with ArcEuro except as a very happy and satisfied customer.

[Martin Hamilton 1Participant @martinhamilton1]

Just to give an idea of how badly designed the lathe is I bought the model that came with the 125mm 3 jaw chuck ( went with the higher cost Bison chuck ). I had a piece of 44mm diam aluminium in the chuck ( chuck max diam for standard jaws is max 50mm diam ). Only to turn the lathe on with an almighty crash, what had happened is where the jaws protrude out from the chuck body they hit the 10mm steel pivot bar that holds the Perspex safety guard. Completely mangling this 10mm bar & guard, the largest diam you can fit in the chuck without the jaws hitting this bar is 42mm diam. I was also concerned as to whether this would have done any damage to the headstock bearings or headstock alignment. I contacted the UK supplier & they never had a clue that this could happen, im afraid that most of the current machine tool dealers just sell their products. I have asked a number of UK dealers technical questions about their machines & most simply don't have a clue. In the end I contacted the technical dept at the Wabeco factory in Germany over this issue. they also never had a clue that this could happen with their D4000 when fitted with the factory fitted 125mm chuck & that due to this issue being raised they were going to redesign the guard pivot bar so that this wont happen in future ( not sure if they did this mod on future machines ). When I asked them how this problem was not known to them they told me they didn't sell that many D4000 with the larger 125mm chuck so wouldn't know that this would be a problem. So much for so called quality German engineering.

[steamdaveParticipant @steamdave]

In reply to Martin, above, I must say that any questions that I had about my Wabeco mill have always been answered courteously and promptly by Bryan at Pro Machine. If he could not give me an answer straight away, he would always get back to me when my query could be answered.

Still doesn't solve the quality issues with the machine, though.

Dave
The Emerald Isle

[Nick anonParticipant @nickanon93441]

Hi Havard and Martin and many thanks for posting about the lathe.

I guess that the particular lathe that I bought may have been a bad apple as regards the centre alignment. However, I believe the lack of rigidity to be the central problem that is inherent to the design. Engineers who have a little experience of a couple of different types of lathe, will be very familiar with that intuitive certainty that a lathe is right and up to the job. I get that feeling with my Compact 5 Millenium Edition. It punches way above its weight in all respects. However as soon as I took delivery of the D4000, it just felt wrong. The tailstock is hopelessly over extended and the absence of structural bulk on the cross and top slide can be felt immediately on a undemanding cut. The D4000 appears to be an almost direct copy of the Compact 8, but if you ever get the chance to feel the beef behind the C8 tailstock, you'll see the difference. The C8 slides are identical pretty much, so I'm guessing that they suffer the same lack of rigidity.

On the subject of what I did, well I was so disappointed with the faulty machine, I took it back to Bryan and got a full refund. I also sold him the steady that I had bought a couple of weeks earlier. Bryan was and is a true gentleman and couldn't of been more helpful. I totally recommend Pro machine tools in all respects. While I was there, I had a little play with a Ceriani David Italian lathe. It reminds me of a slightly simpler Myford. I am still looking for a machine that can meet my work requirements, but the Ceriani has unhardened ways, which is a no no for me, after owning the Emco. Also my gut feeling on the tailstock is that it is disproportionately small and lacking in bulk.

I am still in the process of changing houses, with the new place hopefully having a workshop, driveway and garage. When that happens, I am seriously considering a Hardinge HLV or a smaller Harrison M300 or similar. I know that the price is very different on the Hardinge, but I'm seriously that frustrated by not being able to find a proper machine for under £3K. I wish someone would make a double or triple sized Cowells to the same specs as the original. My used Cowells astounded me and I got more for it than I paid on Ebay. I can't bring myself to buy Chinese, though I would consider a good quality Taiwanese machine. The D6000 is a much heavier consideration altogether, but I've lost confidence in the brand.

Most of my work is in 316, 303 or Gr5 Ti , so I need to have the confidence to plunge a 6mm drill, at least 60mm deep and have it stay on track and most of all, not dwell so the bar workhardens. I've thought that micro boring bars might be the answer, but I'm confident that a good lathe should do this job without even trying. The search goes on.

Best regards, Nick.

[Martin Hamilton 1Participant @martinhamilton1]

I to had issues with the tailstock alignment also as Nick mentions the weight biased to the front of the tailstock, their is so much weight on the front it tips the tailstock when the locking handle is undone. I found when sliding the tailstock along the bed I had to keep my hand on the tailstock base to hold it flat on the bed. Otherwise you were sliding it with the front edge of the tailstock digging into the bed & wearing the bottom of the tailstock base at its front & also scraping the bed. The tailstock footprint is way to small where they also notched a square out of the base to get the tailstock closer to the headstock due to the carriage preventing the tailstock moving close enough to the headstock. When the lathe was brand new their was around .006" back & forth movement on the cross slide, After just a few months very light work this became .012" & bearing in mind their is no adjustment to take the slack out of the cross slide nut ( no split nut ). I simply could not use indexable carbide tools on this lathe due to too much movement in the slide & general flex in the machine, had to use hss tools. The finish was also pretty poor unless you were taking a very fine finishing cut. Vibration was also very bad above 50% & once up to 60% it really shook, 60% up to max speed was unbelievable not just re vibration but also noise. I simply cannot believe this lathe has a hardened bed, I dropped the tailstock chuck key whilst tightening the chuck & it put a small mark in the bed, I also caught the bed with a piece 12mm steel bar when removing from the 3 jaw which also marked the bed.

[Martin Hamilton 1Participant @martinhamilton1]

Parting of with this lathe was also very poor indeed, I had to go down to a 1mm wide parting blade to stand any chance at all. Materials like stainless & any thing slightly tougher than en1 steel forget using a parting tool, the bed casting was also very poor quality especially around the bracing between the bed. I have seen far better quality castings on the various make Chinese lathes around. Some one told me at the time when I ordered my lathe that their was a longer delay on delivery to customers due to the foundry that cast the beds having problems & they have had to find another casting suppliers.

[Martin Hamilton 1Participant @martinhamilton1]

Another area I found the lathe to be not rigid & flexing was when you were tuning down a piece of stock & were turning up to a shoulder, if you turned into the shoulder even just a few thou with the tool the chatter was significant. I have never had a lathe do this with such a light touch, personally I think Pro Machine Tools should drop selling this lathe as this is 2 very unsatisfied customers with the same machine bought around the same time & very similar complaints about the Wabeco D4000 lathe.

[Håvard HouenParticipant @havardhouen58310]

Posted by Nick anon on 09/09/2017 09:51:31:

I guess that the particular lathe that I bought may have been a bad apple as regards the centre alignment. However, I believe the lack of rigidity to be the central problem that is inherent to the design. Engineers who have a little experience of a couple of different types of lathe, will be very familiar with that intuitive certainty that a lathe is right and up to the job. I get that feeling with my Compact 5 Millenium Edition. It punches way above its weight in all respects. However as soon as I took delivery of the D4000, it just felt wrong. The tailstock is hopelessly over extended and the absence of structural bulk on the cross and top slide can be felt immediately on a undemanding cut. The D4000 appears to be an almost direct copy of the Compact 8, but if you ever get the chance to feel the beef behind the C8 tailstock, you'll see the difference. The C8 slides are identical pretty much, so I'm guessing that they suffer the same lack of rigidity.

Thanks for sharing your views!

First, I must stress that I might be biased as I have owned a D4000 for couple of years.

My reason for buying a D4000 was that I was very disappointed with my Proxxon PD230 Lathe. I wanted a lathe that was ready to deliver right out of the crate.

I experienced a couple of disappointments right away. The Colletholder did not run true and had to be replaced. The protective shield obstructed the work when using collets, and had to be removed.

And due to a grave user error I had a major dig-in accident using a parting off tool. The cross slide broke, and it took several months to get replacement parts.

But as I ran the lathe too fast for the job and not having the sense to lock the saddle, I really can not fault the lathe for this, me thinks.

So I absolutely have had some doubts about the lathe.

But what really puzzles me are the comments about the bed being almost as soft as aluminium and scratching and chipping just by brushing a hard object against it.

As a total beginner I have not treated my lathe very kindly at all times, but the bed is almost as new. No dents or scratches.

And the tailstock is an absolute pleasure to use. It aligns up perfectly every time with no misalignment whatsoever with the spindle. Centre drilling is always spot on.

Is it possible that your machine had a bed that was not hardened properly? How did the importer explain your troubles?

I also have a friend that exchanged a Proxxon PD400 for a Wabeco D4000, and he has nothing but good things to say about the D4000. I have not tried the PD400 myself, but I have tried several of Proxxon tools in addition to the PD230 lathe, and I generally find them to be overpriced and underpowered.

It is strange that opinons on the same machine can be so divided. I guess I just have to learn using my machine properly and then decide for myself!

[larry PhelanParticipant @larryphelan54019]

the above makes sad reading indeed. I would have expected something better coming from Germany,but then,perhaps it only passed through Germany on its way to you. Who knows where it was made. For that kind of money,I would expect something better,a lot better. My Chinese lathe [Craftsman ] cost a lot less and while it is not tool room quality,it does not have an Ali or Lead bedway. Although the quality of the cast iron is not top class,it is hardened and has never marked or dented. I find the cast iron is somewhat sandy compared to other old cast iron items I have. There are a few rough issues,but nothing major considering the price,the only fault I find with it is that it could do with a much bigger and better top slide. I think it,s a bit light.

I know we are not talking like-for-like,but neither cost-for-cost and while I often thought about upgrading to a better EU made machine,this gives me food for thought. I agree that sellers/suppliers often seem to know very little about the stuff they sell,and in some cases,care less. To end up with something like that is a sickening experience but at least you were able to get rid of it. Perhaps I was lucky in that my machine seems to be able to cope with all I throw at it,and that,s some !

I would like to see how much a good quality Chinese lathe would cost compared to an EU model. I,m sure they make them.

Anyone else got views on this subject ?

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Some of the Hardinge clones from the far east are supposed to be quite good but at a price

Edited By JasonB on 10/09/2017 13:12:49

[larry PhelanParticipant @larryphelan54019]

Before some one jumps down my neck,let me say that I did not look at the date of that thread [seems I was not the only one ]

I simply commented on the issue

[Håvard HouenParticipant @havardhouen58310]

I am the one guilty for restarting the discussion, so if anyones neck should be jumped, it is mine!

But I felt the the topic was still interesting, even if the original post was almost two years old.

I have been struggeling with my D4000 for some years, and it is very interesting to hear from other D4000 users.

Some of the problems I have encountered ar definitively due to my lack of machining skills, others might be connected to problems with the machine.

To hear about the problems people have had with these relatively expensive machines came as quite a shock. Fortunately, my bed does not seem to suffer from problems with its hardness.

I would love to hear from people that are happy with their Wabecos.

It would also be interesting to hear suggestions for improving the performance of the D4000. For instance, I think that redesigning the crosslide or even replacing it might be a good idea.

I am also considering an "emergency fix" that avoids using the compund slide altoghether and replace it with a solid toolpostt in combination with a micrometer stop. Like described here:

Regards,

Havard H

[Author]

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