Take a look?

[MWParticipant @mw27036]

Posted by old Al on 27/12/2016 15:54:02:

I dont think i would pass that one if it turns up at my club, but i would have to look at it more closely before making my final decision.

Gee, I didn't think it was that bad, even if the price is a little steep for most pockets.. These clubs sound a little unfriendly to outsiders!

Michael W

[bodgeParticipant @bodge]

C E =, counterfeit endorsement ………….

OK , will just get my coat…………..b

edit for typo…….b

Edited By bodge on 27/12/2016 16:18:09

[David Standing 1Participant @davidstanding1]

Posted by Steven Vine on 27/12/2016 15:49:45:

Lol. Communal armchair lynching. All the frenzy and thrills of a real life lynching, but from the comfort of your warm cosy armchair. It could be the new hobby for 2017. Guilty as charged!

Steve

Oh, you are about two decades too late for communal internet forum armchair lynching! .

[Brian HParticipant @brianh50089]

Quote 1;I've asked the seller about the Blackgates connection and will post again when (if) I get a reply.

Quote 2; reply from seller:

"hi there and thank you for your question – thank you for pointing out this error – this has been amended to read LBSC design – my wife copied this from one listing detail to another in error so i apologise for any confusion. i ubderstand there has been some debate today on Model engineers workshop regarding my work – I will be respnding to that separately but please be assured that I build quality boilers and have not yet had one negative feedback on them. See feedback as a seller pages 5,6,8,20 and 21 for comments from very satisfied ebayers which is only some of the business in the last couple of years. If you would like to discuss further my telephone number is 01132 567676. Kibd regards. Chris Lyall"

Edited By JasonB on 27/12/2016 16:50:30

[chris lyallParticipant @chrislyall93363]

Hi all – I am the boiler maker you have been criticising so quickly! There appears to be a couple of issues that you are not happy with:-

1. The Blackgates reference in the Juliet boiler eBay listing details was a genuine mistake by my wife who left it in in error after using the listing details of the Sweet Pea boiler as a start for the Juliet boiler details. This has now been amended to read LBSC design. I apologise for any confusion but my wife Samantha is an accountant NOT a model engineer and she has been running the Ebay side of things for a while to see how things would go. i will be moving to my own seller account this year to build up my feedback profile independently of her. In the meantime, should you wish to read the feedback of some of my customers please see pages 5, 6, 8,20 and 21 of feedback as a seller where you can read for yourself the satisfaction of those who have bought boilers etc from me.

2. Now to the CE marking – as you say this is a complete can of worms because everyone has their own opinion. I have done talks for several model engineer societies and every boiler inspector has his own opinion. It is permissible to build copper boilers up to 50 bar litres and self certify for the purpose of CE marking. This in accordance with the Pressure Systems Safety Regulations (PSSR). I maintain an auditable trail of all materials used (copper sheet, copper tube, phosphor bronze, silver solder, flux and gases etc). Every boiler I make has a unique number with the builder identified and the test pressure stamped permanently on it. The reason there is no picture in the Ebay listing is to ensure we do not fall foul of Ebay not as described rules as obviously the boiler dispatched will have a different number to the one pictured since it will have been built to order.

All my customers are most welcome to visit my facilities, and on collection of a boiler, check that I am working to the correct material and published design and appropriate hydraulic pressure test. I have now constructed over 100 copper boilers and everyone has been accepted as a quality purchase with no returns for any reason. My customers are worldwide.

I can certainly reassure you that these are manufactured by myself as correctly identified above which is why there is indeed a 30 day lead time to dispatch. Therefore they are not imported from China or elsewhere – I have never had one fail a pressure test and I am happy for anyone to come and see me at work.

I have only just started this venture in ernest having just retired. My last job was working in Afghanistan for 8 years as a contractor runing the Royal engineers Workshop. I have previously written an article for Model Engineer about a year ago which refers to the Afghan Engine which I taught young soldiers to build in their free time. They seemed to appreciate having something completely different to concentrate on for while. My business is in the early stages of development and with the help of my wife in 2017 we aim to have a separate Ebay user id and paypal account and also a website will be developed with links to U tube videos when possible. I am not personally able to do that sort of admin and rely on my wife who works full time in a very busy job and has limited time to help with the admin.

I would be interested to hear why one of the above would not pass my boiler and specifically for what reasons. Also the Model Engineers chest is not a prop it is in my workshop as I write this reply.

Finally, if any of you have anything further you would like to discuss with me I would be happy to talk to you and put your fears at bay. Kind regards. Chris Lyall 01132 567676

[Phil PParticipant @philp]

Good for you Chris.

I don't know you personally but I do know someone near me who has talked to you recently about buying a boiler.

Why does everyone have to go on the attack like a pack of animals ?

Its very cowardly sitting behind a keyboard having a go at someones business when you know nothing at all about it.

Phil

[Tony Pratt 1Participant @tonypratt1]

Ok all you 'armchair engineers' we are waiting to hear from you.

Tony

[MWParticipant @mw27036]

Posted by Phil P on 27/12/2016 17:41:34:

Why does everyone have to go on the attack like a pack of animals ?

Phil

The lively debate is both a good and bad addition to the forum, it means nothing stays dour on here for very long, but it also means some quite legitimate work gets pounced upon like a band of vandals.

I'm glad he has come back here to defend it, it placed some much needed perspective on the other side of the story, It might not be the most glorious boiler in the world but it's many miles off from bad.

If i'm right in saying this, it looks like this is sold as a part built, sub assembly piece of a much larger bit of kit. So you wouldn't do any finishing polish to it until you had fully built it.

I've found personally, that there are some who just can't be helped, and never have a good word for anyone. Regardless of whether it was deserved, so I just put the blinkers on and focus on what I like.

Michael W

Edited By Michael Walters on 27/12/2016 18:01:29

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Posted by Tony Pratt 1 on 27/12/2016 17:43:27:

Ok all you 'armchair engineers' we are waiting to hear from you.

Tony

Too busy polishing the welds on the chair arm

[David Standing 1Participant @davidstanding1]

Posted by chris lyall on 27/12/2016 16:51:49:

Hi all – I am the boiler maker you have been criticising so quickly! There appears to be a couple of issues that you are not happy with:-

1. The Blackgates reference in the Juliet boiler eBay listing details was a genuine mistake by my wife who left it in in error after using the listing details of the Sweet Pea boiler as a start for the Juliet boiler details. This has now been amended to read LBSC design. I apologise for any confusion but my wife Samantha is an accountant NOT a model engineer and she has been running the Ebay side of things for a while to see how things would go. i will be moving to my own seller account this year to build up my feedback profile independently of her. In the meantime, should you wish to read the feedback of some of my customers please see pages 5, 6, 8,20 and 21 of feedback as a seller where you can read for yourself the satisfaction of those who have bought boilers etc from me.

2. Now to the CE marking – as you say this is a complete can of worms because everyone has their own opinion. I have done talks for several model engineer societies and every boiler inspector has his own opinion. It is permissible to build copper boilers up to 50 bar litres and self certify for the purpose of CE marking. This in accordance with the Pressure Systems Safety Regulations (PSSR). I maintain an auditable trail of all materials used (copper sheet, copper tube, phosphor bronze, silver solder, flux and gases etc). Every boiler I make has a unique number with the builder identified and the test pressure stamped permanently on it. The reason there is no picture in the Ebay listing is to ensure we do not fall foul of Ebay not as described rules as obviously the boiler dispatched will have a different number to the one pictured since it will have been built to order.

All my customers are most welcome to visit my facilities, and on collection of a boiler, check that I am working to the correct material and published design and appropriate hydraulic pressure test. I have now constructed over 100 copper boilers and everyone has been accepted as a quality purchase with no returns for any reason. My customers are worldwide.

I can certainly reassure you that these are manufactured by myself as correctly identified above which is why there is indeed a 30 day lead time to dispatch. Therefore they are not imported from China or elsewhere – I have never had one fail a pressure test and I am happy for anyone to come and see me at work.

I have only just started this venture in ernest having just retired. My last job was working in Afghanistan for 8 years as a contractor runing the Royal engineers Workshop. I have previously written an article for Model Engineer about a year ago which refers to the Afghan Engine which I taught young soldiers to build in their free time. They seemed to appreciate having something completely different to concentrate on for while. My business is in the early stages of development and with the help of my wife in 2017 we aim to have a separate Ebay user id and paypal account and also a website will be developed with links to U tube videos when possible. I am not personally able to do that sort of admin and rely on my wife who works full time in a very busy job and has limited time to help with the admin.

I would be interested to hear why one of the above would not pass my boiler and specifically for what reasons. Also the Model Engineers chest is not a prop it is in my workshop as I write this reply.

Finally, if any of you have anything further you would like to discuss with me I would be happy to talk to you and put your fears at bay. Kind regards. Chris Lyall 01132 567676

Given some of the comments, I think that is a very gracious and mature response.

Good luck with your new venture Chris

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Posted by Michael Walters on 27/12/2016 17:49:55:

If i'm right in saying this, it looks like this is sold as a part built, sub assembly piece of a much larger bit of kit. So you wouldn't do any finishing polish to it until you had fully built it.

Michael the point wa snot about "polishing up" things to look nice on a finished model but the way in which a boiler is generaqlly cleaned up prior to being sold. You only need to look at the sites of the well known boiler makers to see what a tidy boiler looks like such as Western steam, Southern boiler works, Steam technology etc to get the idea.

J

[Brian HParticipant @brianh50089]

Please can one (or more) of the boiler inspectors explain why they wouldn't pass the boiler in question?

Brian

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Posted by Brian Hutchings on 27/12/2016 18:04:33:

Please can one (or more) of the boiler inspectors explain why they wouldn't pass the boiler in question?

Brian

Seems like a buyer is not going to be getting the boiler(s) shown so rather irrelevant. I don't think the advert made it very clear that a wouldbe buyer would not be getting the boiler shown and that the advert was actually for a boiler making service, maybe something for Chris to look into in the future.

My comment about no sign of any numbering or working pressure being visible on the boilers in the advers stands only if they were ones that were made for sale really as I would expect to see that.

[Andy AshParticipant @andyash24902]

Readding the regulations, it seems to me that the boiler should not be CE marked.

Given that many model locomotive boilers might fall inside the 50 bar litres constraint for category 1 it would not seem inappropriate to CE mark if the regulations for category one had been met. The seller claims that he has.

What worries me more is that the seller is ambiguous about the builder. It is not clear if the seller is the builder, or if someone built the boiler and the seller is selling it on his behalf.

The regulations, and indeed all good practice guidleines recommend that new boilers should identify the builder. This applies both for amateur and professional boilers. I am sure that many old boilers do not follow this guideline, and it does not make them bad boilers. Equally if someone makes boilers that consistently fail and cause harm, then good boiler makers should not fear presenting their details for scrutiny.

For mere mortals tracability provides a means to systematically root out dangerous pressure vessels should they come to exist.

For me, there is no way I'd buy a boiler, unless I could personally speak to the traceable maker and get confirmation of his build. I'd probably want to ask somone knowledgable if they knew the person who I spoke to.

To suggest that these critical markings are not shown because the photographed boiler might not be the one sold, is woefully inadequate. If I'm going to spend, then I want to see the boiler I'm buying. Just by looking at one of them, I can see they're not exactly coming off the line faster than they can be photographed.

The idea that it might be attributable to Blackgates, is pretty low. Maybe it was an accident, but I wouldn't buy that either.

Edited By Andy Ash on 27/12/2016 19:19:05

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Andy,

Read 8 posts up, all has been explained by the builder.

[Andy AshParticipant @andyash24902]

Hi John,

I did read the post above, but for me the ambiguity remains.

It's on a "Buy it now" and critical information is not present.

For me it's that simple.

 

Good luck to anyone trying to start a business, but I think quality is a holistic thing.

I don't think any steam generating boiler is an area where quality is a compromise, and for me that includes the whole proposition.

If the seller is reading my post, I would hope that he takes it and understands it for the better of his business.

If he choses not to, then it is his business.

 

Andy.

 

Edited to add;

 

The pressure equipment directive speaks of supplying vessels with guidance notes and instructions. To me this implies that it is the responsibility of the builder to guide the buyer in correct use. "Buy it now – ask critical questions if you want" doesn't seem to me to carry that same "best practice" ethos.

 

Edited By Andy Ash on 27/12/2016 20:09:37

[old AlParticipant @oldal]

As model engineers we need new blood in someone to build our boilers. The good ones always seem to have at least year+ waiting list. So good on you.

The first photo with the boiler facing to the left on the second row shows an incomplete ring of solder round one of the stays, a later photo shows a lack of solder to the right hand, lower side of the backhead and some solder seems not to have flowed too well. It could well pressure test OK, but looks wrong and likely to fail prematurly . Not what i would expect when you say you have done more than 100 boilers.

I personally would not buy a non CE marked boiler of any size. I have also seen both the workshops of the boilermakers i have used. I dont agree with the working conditions of one of them, but the final product is always good.

Keep up the good work and show us your next completed boiler and show us up for the moaners we really are. f to moan about someones loco painting now or something else. Their is just rubbish on the telly this Christmas, so we have to moan at something, this year it was your turn to be picked on

[julian atkinsParticipant @julianatkins58923]

I am an amateur builder of copper silver soldered boilers in 3.5" and 5"g.

I agree with 'old Al's' comments on the overlap joint on the barrel seam which these days does not comply with the current club boiler regs for new boilers where butt straps preferably outside are now required. This is a 'fault' of the LBSC design, though if the overlap joint is well done there really should be no problem.

Given the price, I would not expect the neatness of joints of Western Steam and Helen etc.. If the joints are sound then neatness of silver soldering is merely cosmetic.

I commend Colin Lyall for posting a reply. I have no connection with him.

If I may add a further point. The LBSC 3.5"g Juliet boiler is a small easy boiler to make in this day and age. It is the sort of boiler that can easily be made by the amateur builder with a bit of sense and some appreciation of the pitfalls to be avoided.

It is the considerably more complex miniature loco boilers where resort to a commercial boiler maker may have to be an option, and at much greater expense.

There must be very little profit margin in Colin's Juliet boiler sale price. I wish him every success with his venture.

Cheers,

Julian

[Simon CollierParticipant @simoncollier74340]

I can't understand why so many people are comfortable buying copper boilers anyway. They are a rather large and dominant part of the engine. If you haven't made the boiler, you haven't made the loco. And you are denying yourself one of the most enjoyable and satisfying (and yes, at times stressful), parts of the build. A friend recently completed his first boiler, for a large 5" gauge pacific. The barrel section has two diameters, rolled and butt strapped. It has a combustion chamber with Galloway tubes, it has palm stays, and also a complicated regulator fitting on the backhead. It shows what can be done, even with a first build.

[MWParticipant @mw27036]

Posted by Simon Collier 1 on 27/12/2016 22:18:41:

I can't understand why so many people are comfortable buying copper boilers anyway. They are a rather large and dominant part of the engine. If you haven't made the boiler, you haven't made the loco.

I can agree with why it is very enjoyable, but what works for one may not work for another. This is why I've started with much more modestly built stationary engines, it's a much gentler learning curve and if it were me i'd definitely want to have a go.

However, some people may feel that this is just too much outside their comfort zone and would be much happier allowing someone who does make these to do it for them, at least for that part of the build.

I would not begrudge anyone for taking this approach, I think putting across that they aren't allowed to be recognised for making it because of that, only serves to deter people from trying.

Michael W

[norman valentineParticipant @normanvalentine78682]

It all goes back to where you accept that someone has built their own loco or traction engine. Laser cut frames, spokes for traction engine wheels, made their own castings, dug their own ore. It all depends on where they want to start. I know what suits me, building from a ready machined kit is not engineering but some people get enjoyment from it. Do what suits you.

[old AlParticipant @oldal]

I always avoided building my boilers. Different techniques, different tools required and your whole workshop full of shiney tools made all sweaty by the heat and then going rusty.

In the last 10 years i have made several boilers and have enjoyed the different style of engineering.But i wouldn avoid outside help if i felt so inclined.

I dont condem any shortcut in getting a loco on the track. Its a long and expensive project with all sorts of things to trip us up along the way. dont forget, the earlier model engineers didnt have a micrometer, should we not condemm the use of them also. we should use what is available and in our budget to make our creations

[John RuddParticipant @johnrudd16576]

Posted by Simon Collier 1 on 27/12/2016 22:18:41:

I can't understand why so many people are comfortable buying copper boilers anyway. They are a rather large and dominant part of the engine.

Not everyone has the facilities to make their own boiler…..and to the standard required…

If you haven't made the boiler, you haven't made the loco.

So if you havent grown the wheat, farmed the land etc, milled the grain, made the butter, raised the chickens for the eggs, you havent made the cake?

Why are we being so critical?

[Nick TParticipant @nickt]

Chris Lyall recently built a Sweet Pea boiler for me and I went to collect it from his workshop in Leeds. Chris was recommended to me by a prolific model engineer who lives near me in Surrey and is an active member of a model engineering club with a very good reputation.

I found Chris to be thoroughly professional at all times and his written correspondence is very good – not something I would say about another boiler smith I approached whose emails were cryptic to say the least. 

Chris doesn't pretend to have made boilers all his life but he has gone out of his way to provide a credible and professional business approach and I have no doubt that he would attend promptly to any issues that might arise with one of his products. Nick

 

 

Edited By Nick T on 28/12/2016 12:14:35

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Chris Lyall has nothing to fear from the armchair warriors on this forum.

NONE of them will EVER be a customer. For a start most are too tight to even buy a pair of shoes so they can go into the workshop, slippers are far cheaper.

Those that can do it and enjoy it will do it.

Anyone who wants a boiler and is serious will be looking at the various builders.

The rest will just be polishing the welds on the keyboard where it attaches to the armchair.

[Author]

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