Recommendations for a quality milling vice?

[Raymond AndersonParticipant @raymondanderson34407]

I got a Gressel at a very good discount, superb vice very solid and accurate although the full price is​ if i'd had to pay that then I would have had to "pass " Really is overkill for hobby use and I only use it on the K & T the vice that gets most use is a 100mm one I got from Warco many moons ago, and is a excellent vice for hobbyists.

[Anonymous]

Posted by JasonB on 30/12/2017 19:55:02:

I'm not keen on grooved jaws on milling vices as thin tall work has less support and you can't hold very small items above the jaws easily. Far rather have plain jaws and use parallels to suit than the notch which that vice has.

I'd agree with not liking pre-machined grooves. When I said grooves I really meant steps. Like this:

This was a production part, 80 off all done manually. With a milled step I can get exactly what I want with correct alignment, rather than faff around with multiple parallels. I haven't had the need to do the same on the Kurt yet. The standard Kurt vice jaws are hardened, but they do sell a soft jaw kit. I'd probably just use a couple of blocks of aluminium instead. It's the same principle as soft jaws on the lathe.

Andrew

[Russell EberhardtParticipant @russelleberhardt48058]

You can always make your own to whatever precision you require. I made one of these about ten years ago and find it easy to use, sufficiently accurate, and no jaw lift.

Russell

[Steve PaveyParticipant @stevepavey65865]

This Old Tony did a review of a Chinese made vice which is far more informative and unbiased than the one linked to above. Stefan Gotteswinter has a video on making his own machine vice, similar to the one Russel has linked to above. Both these YouTube contributors are experienced machinists, so worth watching (and TOT is hilarious!)

I recently bought a 125mm vice from Arc, which is pretty good. I stripped it down and cleaned it, and I also had to do a bit of fettling as it had no datum mark for the angle setting. In hindsight I should have bought a 100 mm version probably, but it’s worked well for all I have used it for so far.

[VicParticipant @vic]

Re Bison stuff, they bought a 4” Bison vice to replace an old Abwood at work and it seemed pretty good to me. I think Bison stuff is made in Poland, like the last Harrison M300 Lathe the firm bought.

I’m not sure why Kurt vices are so popular in America unless it’s because they’re made over there. They seem pretty tall losing you Z height on a modest size mill and the gap in the middle makes holding small parts problematic compared to a solid vice design. Having said that the Italian vices that use a similar no-lift design look very nice nice and are lower profile than the Kurt. Like the Kurt though they are quite pricey.

I’d have an Abwood again if it was in good condition. The Kiwi’s copied the design at one point in a small version suitable for small mills but I’ve not seen one for sale for a long time.

[DuncParticipant @dunc]

I recall a review, some-time ago in MEW (don't have the issue # handy) that was sold by one of your advertisers. I recall that it was designed for a smaller machine & had a capacity that defied its nominal dimensions – something about clever jaw arrangements. Thought it got good reviews & was interested but wrong side of the pond.

Anyway, the usual disclaimers

[MuzzerParticipant @muzzer]

Posted by Vic on 31/12/2017 12:45:10:

I’m not sure why Kurt vices are so popular in America unless it’s because they’re made over there. They seem pretty tall losing you Z height on a modest size mill and the gap in the middle makes holding small parts problematic compared to a solid vice design. Having said that the Italian vices that use a similar no-lift design look very nice nice and are lower profile than the Kurt. Like the Kurt though they are quite pricey.

They've done a very good job playing the patriotic card. It's true that they are good, accurate vises but there are plenty others out there too. It seems you have no business posting a Youtube video or forum post over there without the obligatory blue Kurt logo winking at you, ideally a gang of 2 or more. Seems to be the first thing to buy for the "shop" in most of their books. If you go for a more generic "angle lock" (Kurt clone) design that is made to a good quality standard (eg the Arc Euro Versatile vises), I expect you would avoid the Xmas cracker end of the market but get similar performance for a fraction of the cost of a genuine Kurt.

Building on the obligatory Kurt vise, the latest "approved" upgrade for the patriotic Mercan is the Carvesmart quick change jaw system. The starter kit comes in at a cool $300 and that's before you actually get around to buying additional sets of jaws. How could you manage without?

But the latest fad over on US Youtube seems to be these blessed "quick change pallet" systems. Quite why a small machinist or hobby user would want to blow a couple of grand on one of those is beyond me. But they sure look good, even if they must add significant mass (inertia) to your CNC table.

Murray

[NJHParticipant @njh]

Never come across a job which my Vertex vice couldn’t cope with.

Norman

[FMESParticipant @fmes]

I wonder how much that Chinese vice would have cost if it had been treated to the same amount of measuring and grinding in as shown in that video prior to selling.

[Mike E.Participant @mikee-85511]

Posted by choochoo_baloo on 30/12/2017 00:13:27:

As the title says, I'm hoping for recommendations for a quality milling vice for a (Tom Senior) milling machine.

Due to past disappointments, I want to steer clear of a generic chinesium vice.

Thanks in advance.

If you are not in a hurry, consider looking for an Abwood or Jones & Shipman vice in the 4" or 4 1/2" size. It took me awhile to find the the undamaged vices I have, but the search was worth it. Here are photos showing the size comparison of a 6" Abwood and a 4" J & S in relation to my Tom senior milling table. Sorry about the dark photos, my equipment is in storage at the moment.

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

That 6” Abwood might look silly on a Tom Senior Junior.

[Roy MParticipant @roym]

Doug, with reference to your comment about the lack of inspection in Cinese factories, I read somewhere, (and after consideration have no reason to doubt the claim), that nothing is scrapped, just sold on as substandard to a supplier who chooses the best bits, then sells the rest on. Eventually, the dregs are unsaleable, but in between there is an awful lot of dodgy stuff in the marketplace that is visually the same, but rubbish.

Roy M.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

XD351's link to the China vs USA Vice video is worth watching for the tests he does with a DTI.

In an earlier post I said my Chinese vice 'was fine'. I did the jaw-lift test on it and found the moveable jaw lifts by 0.04mm, which isn't good. Reading up on milling vices it turns out that jaw lift is a very common problem and some designs (not brands) are more vulnerable than others. For example, over-screw types are more likely to bend than under-screw types. Wear is also a possible cause of trouble.

Any chance of vice owners posting some measurements as well as opinions? For example, with a 0.01mm DTI I can't detect any jaw-lift on a DH-1, whereas I see 0.04mm on the Chinese. I suggest it's worth doing the test because you might not have spotted a problem that can be adjusted out. (I haven't tried adjusting my Chinese vice yet.)

Dave

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 31/12/2017 20:24:31

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Interesting that you call one a Chinese and the other the (Warco) DH-1, guess where the DH-1 is made. Though it probably costs 3 x more than the Chinese one. Same old thing you get what you pay for.

I'll have a measure up in the morning

[MuzzerParticipant @muzzer]

You have to be careful how you measure the jaw lift.

With the "angle lock" design used widely in Kurts and their many clones, the clamping force is applied at about 14 degrees to the horizontal ie tan-1 (0.25). This is acting to pull the moving jaw down against the base with 1/4 of the applied horizontal force but you could easily arrange for the jaws to be lifted by using a suitable workpiece whereby the induced lift exceeds this. I'm afraid the maths isn't simple though….

That video received a well deserved slagging off as it was pathetically short of objective. It seemed more of a shill for the US products than anything resembling a scientific comparison. You have to be careful of these vacuous "comparisons". Often, the one thing missing is any form of actual performance testing itself.

Whilst in the mood for some light-hearted entertainment, here's a classic example of a "comparison" between open loop stepper, closed loop stepper and servo motor that appeared today. Despite the thing dragging on for over half an hour, the only "testing" the guy does is to try to grab the motor shaft with his fingers. WTF?? This is rather like those videos showing tremendous rapid speeds on home built CNC machines, when of course they would reduce significantly if they actually tried to apply a load – if they actually got around to machining something rather than making endless videos.

Murray

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by JasonB on 31/12/2017 21:00:39:

Interesting that you call one a Chinese and the other the (Warco) DH-1, guess where the DH-1 is made. Though it probably costs 3 x more than the Chinese one. Same old thing you get what you pay for.

I'll have a measure up in the morning

Yes – careless use of words on my part, not me intentionally bashing the Chinese! I believe the DH-1 is made in China too. It was well over twice the price of the other one. Both came from Warco, the jaw lifter is similar to their current 5479 model, but not identical.

In use I hadn't noticed a problem with it. I got a DH-1 because it's jaw combinations are more versatile, not because I was unhappy with the other.

Dave

[VicParticipant @vic]

This is the Stanier that Home & Workshop used to sell. Sadly no longer available it seems.

[I.M. OUTAHEREParticipant @i-m-outahere]

Posted by not done it yet on 31/12/2017 05:51:09:

I watched that video a while back.

I don’t think I have seen anything more blatantly biased and comparing apples with oranges – like comparing a Roller with Ford! Or even a Roller with a series llA Landrover.

Likely seen some as blatant, but he sure doesn’t deserve any credits for that one.

Yes but considering they gave the vice to him there has to be some arse kissing done !

I wasn't trying to put down chinese made stuff just trying to show that if you buy cheap you get cheap , for the most part the vice is usable .

[VicParticipant @vic]

My 4” Indian Shoba vice was cheap, about £80 if memory serves about eight or nine years ago. I didn’t try to find fault with it when I first got it I just used it. It was only a few years ago that I actually took the time to measure it when I made some stepped sleeves for the mounting holes to fit the table slots. I was pleasantly surprised with how accurately made it was, even the mounting holes are parallel to the jaws. Maybe I was lucky or maybe Shoba stuff is generally well made?

[Mike E.Participant @mikee-85511]

Posted by not done it yet on 31/12/2017 17:51:37:

That 6” Abwood might look silly on a Tom Senior Junior.

Just showed it to give a perspective. Its much to large and heavy to be use in the position shown, however, turned 90 * the overhang is minimal; and for the odd occasion it might be necessary, at least I've got it.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Well I had a measure up this morning, one result as expected the other two better than expected.

Basic set up was with 1/2" parallels and a 1:2:3: block clamping over the 2" width. I did it with vice bolted to mill table as that is how they are actually used and also allowed me to mount mag stand on the table as the smaller vices would not fit the stand on the actual vice as per the video. I also changed the moving arm on the DTI stand to a solid bar part way through as I thought the lack or reading may be flex in the arm. Newell 10ths dti and also tried with a 0.0005" lever type.

Basic set up shown

Results

I expected some lift from my K4 as it is the top screw type and has had 10yrs use, still quite good and nothing a tap with a copper or lead hammer won't cure. Back of fixed jaw is integral to the base so did not expect lift there.

The Versatile I could just detect some movement which considering the jaws screw to the base seems logical but plenty good enough for hobby use unless you are into splitting atoms in half on your mill.

90mm Type 2, again back and base are one bit of metal so did not expect movement there and the downward pull of the jaw must be working as the needles did not move.

So in my workshop they would all be fit for purpose and quite possibly better than a second hand one that has seen some use.

I did take a bit of video which I'll put together later but as it is a bit jumpy did not want to have Neil feeling sick after his New Year session!

Also in the video he showed a step in the base where the casting looks to have just been face milled. The underside of the ones from ARC have a ground finish and I could not feel any ridges, that's why it is often better to get the item from a known supplier of good quality items that buy what looks to be the same from an unknown cheaper source as you never really know what you are getting from the web photos.

Edited By JasonB on 01/01/2018 10:30:54

[sean logieParticipant @seanlogie69385]

Proof is in the pudding as they say … kinda contradicts what a lot of people out there say about you get what you pay for ,I don't like parting with my hard earned ,if the precision vice I've ordered comes close to this review I'll be a happy bunny considering the price I payed  .

 

From Steve Summers channel

 

Happy New Year everyone

 

Sean

Edited By sean logie on 01/01/2018 10:56:14

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by JasonB on 01/01/2018 10:28:56:

Well I had a measure up this morning, one result as expected the other two better than expected.

…

…

So in my workshop they would all be fit for purpose and quite possibly better than a second hand one that has seen some use.

…

Also in the video he showed a step in the base where the casting looks to have just been face milled. …

Thank for publishing the measurements – very reassuring. For what it's worth, my workshop is almost entirely Far Eastern; it may not be the best kit in the world but it does the job. No horror stories to tell – perhaps it helped that I bought through established British importers who care about their reputations.

I intended adjusting my lifting jaws this morning to see if I can tune out the fault but am cosseting a cold instead. The jury will have to wait until I've stopped snivelling.

As Muzzer and others have pointed out, I agree that video has many problems. Using the exactly same vices I could spin a misleading video 'proving' that the American vice is poor value for money. Good job I'm basically honest guv…

Dave

[petro1headParticipant @petro1head]

Not sure this is allowed if not delete

This thread reminded me that I bought of of these **LINK**, need to check the size, but never used it. I did make some clamps to hold it to the table.

If your interested let me know and I will check the size

[Ian Skeldon 2Participant @ianskeldon2]

I bought the same vice (I think) from Arc that Jason is showing, at first I had a nightmare with it, it seemed that everything mounted/gripped would lean down at the front (operator end). I suspected the moving jaw was diving as the fixed one couldnt really go anywhere.

Just to be sure I re-clocked the table, a couple of tenths at worst but not in that plane, so not that, then re-clocked the vice, emmm couldn't se anything more than about 4 tenths, so I assumed my parralells were not true, not sure why as they had been when I tested them. Anyway it turned out to be a very small ridge at the end of the vice base, directly under the fixed jaw. the machining hadn't gone in quite far enough, I milled it and stoned it and now my vice doesn't show any movement or discrepency when tested with paralells soI'm very happy with it.

[Author]

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