Recommendations for a quality milling vice?

[choochoo_balooParticipant @choochoo_baloo]

As the title says, I'm hoping for recommendations for a quality milling vice for a (Tom Senior) milling machine.

Due to past disappointments, I want to steer clear of a generic chinesium vice.

Thanks in advance.

[choochoo_balooParticipant @choochoo_baloo]

[I.M. OUTAHEREParticipant @i-m-outahere]

I use a vertex copy of the kurt angle lock vice , i find it works well and i use a toolmakers screw less vice for small stuff . Really depends on what sort of $$$ you want to spend .

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

As Said if a far eastern one is not upto the accuracy you feel you need then you will have to buy a name brand one that they are based on which can get a bit spendy. The Rohm version of Arc's SG Iron versatile Vice will set you back about £3k, basic Kurt from about £600 plus £400 for swivel base  vs. £75 for Arc's version complete and similar cost difference on the precision types.

I have used a 4" Vertex K4 for about 10 years and still going strong, also recently been using a type 2 Precision from Arc and can't really fault it.

 

Edited By JasonB on 30/12/2017 08:09:10

[Paul LousickParticipant @paullousick59116]

For 99% of my jobs, I use a 4" Vertex K4 (eqivalent) vice. Its about 5 years old now and still good.

I seldom use the rotating base but have added a key to the base of the vice for quick set up on the mill. For accurate projects I use a toolmakers, screwless vice.

Paul.

[Chris Evans 6Participant @chrisevans6]

I an blessed with two very old industrial vices of around 6" capacity. One is a Jones and Shipman the other came with a "Toss" turret mill. Both are good, patience should eventually yield a used one but even second hand be prepared to spend around £150 as that is what they seem to command. MSC have new Kurt style vices on their offer sheet from time to time, worth a look?

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

The MSC "Interstate" brand Kurt copies that are in the flyers are far eastern and almost identical to those from ARC etc.Not what the OP wants but they do work perfectly well.

[Stuart BridgerParticipant @stuartbridger82290]

+1 on the Vertex K4. solid piece of kit and accurate

[colin vercoeParticipant @colinvercoe57719]

I purchased a new rhom 125mm on ebay for £100 a real bargain, worth keeping an eye on ebay look for Rhom, Abwood, Jones and Shipman etc

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

Which model milling machine?

I recently bought a small Abwood (3&rdquo. It was cheap, has a small chip missing, but works great

Has a gib and runs on a dovetail. Works fine on my Raglan and Centec. People have some snooty ideas of owning a Kurt or similar, but not many hobbyists need that quality. For everyone else a good robust vise is more than adequate. Just need to tap the item down to be sure it seats properly. Cheaper vises may not hold perpendicular if tightened really tight and some Chinese offers are so much built to a price that they are easily broken.

Like Jason, I also have an Arc offering (same type, I think) and that works well but must be clamped down, not bolted. But it can be turned on it’s side, if needed.

I also have a 4 or 5” I got from Chester. Too big for most things but holds everything OK.

This Abwood will see me out.

[Anonymous]

Posted by not done it yet on 30/12/2017 10:57:39:

People have some snooty ideas of owning a Kurt or similar, but not many hobbyists need that quality. For everyone else a good robust vise is more than adequate. Just need to tap the item down to be sure it seats properly.

It's such inverted snobbery, as above, that mean I no longer bother posting much on the forum.

I wouldn't dream of recommending a Kurt vice in this instance, they're just too big for the mill in question. It's a myth that Kurt vices have no jaw lift, but it is small. I measured mine at a few tenths. My previous 1960s industrial (dovetail) machine vice was more like 15 thou of jaw lift. It's all very well tapping the work down, but that's no use if you are using soft jaws with machined grooves to hold a particular piece of work.

The fact that I use a Kurt vice must mean I'm not a hobbyist. And if you believe that you'll believe anything.

Andrew

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

Perhaps you actually need one? Perhaps you do production work? Perhaps I should have written ‘some people have snooty ideas’, but you obviously didn’t read all that sentence. However, ‘if the cap fits’, so be it.

Abwood is a well respected machine tool manufacturer. A good second hand one is more than adequate for my hobby work. It cost me £35. I doubt I needed that quality but I buy the better quality if I can.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Andrew makes an interesting point about the size of vice vs. size of mill, I've had a few conversations with Ketan in relation to the SX2.7 on test. The Kurt clones have quite a wide rectangular foot print which can make it hard to see the Y-axis handwheel dial and as they get bigger the rear fixed jaw gets further from the bolt holes so if you want the tool to be able to clear the back of the work the vice has to hang a log way off the front of the table. The Precision styles and the K4 have a much narrower footprint which does not obscure things as much.

So you are left looking for a smaller vice which may limit the choice in "quality" industrial ones or you have to get a good smaller hobby one.

This shows 100mm and 80mm Versatile vices on the table.

 

You can see the large one has to be bolted to the front tee slot.

This shows that the 90mm precision takes up less room that the versatile Kurt clone and you can see the mach larger jaw size available.

Edited By JasonB on 30/12/2017 13:28:31

[Douglas JohnstonParticipant @douglasjohnston98463]

I bought a Chinese Kurt style clone a couple of years ago and it looked great out of the box. I then proceeded to extend the holding down slots to suit my mill and was well chuffed with the result.

​ I then started to use the vice and soon realised that the fixed jaw was quite a bit out of alignment. After much naughty language and more milling I eventually ended up with good vice. If I had noticed the problem before I altered the holding down slots I would have returned the vice, but felt obliged to keep it and fix it myself.

​ I have noticed that quite a lot of Chinese stuff, while very good value for money, often suffers from a lack of decent inspection. Such a pity.

Doug

[FMESParticipant @fmes]

I use a Croz super precision – mainly because it fits my mill and was a very reasonable price.

[Andrew TinsleyParticipant @andrewtinsley63637]

I now have a couple of Dore vices made from a kit of parts. Remarkably good and as you make them yourself, the quality is what you put into them. I often use both of them to hold long workpieces and they are low profile. This means more vertical space than a conventional vice would give.

I do have a 4 inch Vertex and a modern style 6 inch Abwood. The latter gets used infrequently, because it is big and heavy. The Vertex is good too, but I don't like the rotating base.

Andrew.

[steamdaveParticipant @steamdave]

What size of jobs are you wanting to grip?

A lot of vices don't open particularly wide, so one suggestion is a built up vice from Darmet. https://darmet.com.pl/en/vises/1652-precision-machine-vise-fpzb.html

A possibility for long items is an endless vice such as eBay 292217124620 (But I wouldn't want to pay that sort of price for something that is quite easy to make!)

On my Wabeco mill, I use a Warco DH-1 vice and am very pleased with it.
http://www.warco.co.uk/machine-vices-vice-jaws/109-dh-1-precision-vice.html

Dave
The Emerald Isle

[ronan walshParticipant @ronanwalsh98054]

Abwood are good, but i think they are an old brand. I have one on my Tom Senior, its a nice size, but the problem with buying an old one is the wear it might have suffered. Rohm i do not like at all, any of their tool i used professionally, were bad quality, people get fooled by equating "made in Germany" to quality.

One problem i notice with small milling vices, is few make appropriately sized parallels for them.

[VicParticipant @vic]

I used to have an Abwood, it was very good. I now use a Shoba (Soba) low profile vice and it’s also very good. I wish though that I had bought one with a swivel base as it would have come in handy a few times.

[choochoo_balooParticipant @choochoo_baloo]

Can anyone vouch for Bison Bail vices? I'm drawn to this 100mm opening model:

https://toolsmach.com/milling-machine-vises/3263-quick-acting-machine-vise-100mm-bison-bial-6542-100.html

…as mentioned, manufacturer is important to me and Bison do seem to be an established work holding brand.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

I'm not keen on grooved jaws on milling vices as thin tall work has less support and you can't hold very small items above the jaws easily. Far rather have plain jaws and use parallels to suit than the notch which that vice has.

Think I would also soon get fed up using that small knob to open and close the vice for various workpieces but if you have a need for doing a lot of similar parts then the quick action may be useful

Not tried their vices but have a couple of Bison chucks which are good.

Edited By JasonB on 30/12/2017 20:06:02

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by choochoo_baloo on 30/12/2017 19:40:43:

…

I'm drawn to this 100mm opening model:

https://toolsmach.com/milling-machine-vises/3263-quick-acting-machine-vise-100mm-bison-bial-6542-100.html

…

No experience of Bison myself, but that particular vice is designed for repetition work and may not be ideal for general purpose use. The small handwheel sets the approximate jaw distance and isn't expected to change often. Once the jaw distance is set work is clamped and released rapidly with the long lever. That's ideal if you're making many examples of the same thing – production work. For mixed work I think an ordinary machine vice would be better. (Bison sell them too.)

I started with a generic Chinese vice – it was fine. Later I switched to a DH-1 because they're more flexible. It's good too.

Dave

 

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 30/12/2017 20:18:29

[I.M. OUTAHEREParticipant @i-m-outahere]

There are some interesting things he finds out about cheap vices , the U.S made one looks like the ducks nuts although i wouldn't like to pay for one !

As with anything you gets what you pay for !

Ian.

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

I watched that video a while back.

I don’t think I have seen anything more blatantly biased and comparing apples with oranges – like comparing a Roller with Ford! Or even a Roller with a series llA Landrover.

Likely seen some as blatant, but he sure doesn’t deserve any credits for that one.

[brickyParticipant @bricky]

I made my own from an article in an old ME magazine. Fixed threaded block with hold down T bolts a movable jaw with a hold down into the T slot pushed by a bolt through the fixed part and a movable jaw that travels the length of the mill giving 10 " working space with Gauge plate screwed to the working faces.I seldom use any other vise and it is onle 2" high.

Frank

Edited By bricky on 01/01/2018 09:24:38

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