Quick change tool post

[brickyParticipant @bricky]

I have a dickson clone tool post and found it fiddly to use . I came across the quick change tool post by Pratt Burnerd and designed my own from this.It is easy to make as no dovetails are needed its only drawback is that the tools have to be packed initialy but once done thats it. I have found it far quicker than my other QCTP and it has no overhang so less chance of chatter.If interested in making one look in my album.

Frank

[John HinkleyParticipant @johnhinkley26699]

Just written a longish diatribe here, then lost it all by looking something up, so I'll paraphrase what I wrote:

I've had a four-way, a Dickson clone and a wedge type. I found the last to be far better suited to my needs than either of the other two. In the end you a) get what you pay for and b) you find what suits you best, yourself.

I've also bought a tangential tool holder and can't get on with it! That's most likely down to my incompetence and lack of perseverance with it, however, not the tool itself, as others have good results with them.

John

[Nick HulmeParticipant @nickhulme30114]

Posted by Bazyle on 01/10/2017 11:51:31:if you are too lazy to set the height with shims you are in the wrong hobby.

Or perhaps you aren't lazy but work for a living, have family commitments and also have more than one hobby and value time spent machining parts/crawling under cars/working on motorcycles/designing and making parts not related to toys etc. more than time setting up tools? 😀

[Nick HulmeParticipant @nickhulme30114]

Posted by Thor on 01/10/2017 13:54:46:

I agree with Neil, the tangential toolholders are good and it is up to you to decide whether its worth £82.I made my own tangential toolholders and use them a lot.

Tangential (intentional spelling ) tool holders are great roughing tools but the access limitations imposed by the holders render them of limited use in many situations.

Tangenital Tooling will be cheaper if you have nothing but free time, that makes it better if you're Skint, Tight, have Nowt Better to do or all of the above, that's not me however.

– Nick

[Nick HulmeParticipant @nickhulme30114]

Posted by Bazyle on 01/10/2017 11:51:31:

Fancy tools and toolholders are a mirage to deceive the beginner.

As are magical claims about tool holders in which the author has too much time invested to be able to attain a reasoned viewpiont

– Nick

[martin107Participant @martin107]

My !!!!!! what a can of worms I have opened up, my phone has been dinging all day whilst I have been picking my new (well it is older than me and I'm 60) Myford ML7, so I am going to have a play and see what I actually do or don't need.

Thanks for all the reply's

Martin

[John ReeseParticipant @johnreese12848]

The Dickson toolpost is a quality item. There was one on the 13" lathe I bought. I replaced it with an Aloris wedge type toolpost for only one reason: cost and availability of additional tool holders. Do a cost comparison before you buy.

[Mick B1Participant @mickb1]

Posted by Bazyle on 01/10/2017 11:51:31:

Fancy tools and toolholders are a mirage to deceive the beginner.
Don't get a QCTP until you have several years of experience or more money than sense. You shouldn't be in such a hurry that you need the 'quick' part and if you are too lazy to set the height with shims you are in the wrong hobby.
Don't get a set of carbide tools – often they are crap quality and half are the wrong shape.
Don't get 3/8 or 10mm tool bits for a Myford as it is not about getting the maximum size that can be forced into position.
Do get some 1/4 in HSS toolbits off ebay maybe a handful of used ones at <£1 each. Some will be sort of ground into a nearly usable shape.
Do get a grinder – Screwfix have a 200mm 'Titan' one that I recently got that is amazing value.
Don't think that you need a fancy tool rest for the grinder that has more setting handles than a moon rocket.
Do find out what a 'slip stone' is and get one.

I'm in complete agreement with this. I made a standard L-shaped packing piece out of 1/2" square material with a 1/4" base and a 1/4" high by 1/8" thick sidewall, and I've standardised on 1/4" square HSS tools. Tool changing takes seconds and I rarely have to use any thin shim packing – if I do it's 'cos I've been careless grinding. I use a cheap 150mm. bench grinder I bought 15 years ago from B&Q, and it's completely adequate.

Good luck to those who use QC tool holders, but TBH I think they actually save very little time.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by martin107 on 01/10/2017 18:56:44:

… I am going to have a play and see what I actually do or don't need.

Thanks for all the reply's

Martin

Good plan Martin. I think a QTCP is one of those accessories you only need after personal experience has told you that it's time to buy one. I'm not quite there yet and it's possible I never will.

[ChrisBParticipant @chrisb35596]

Thanks Thor, much appreciated.

[Ian Skeldon 2Participant @ianskeldon2]

Hi Martin,

Sorry for going off topic somewhat, but you may need one of these before anything else **LINK**

Good luck with your new (old ) lathe, I am sure you will have many hours of enjoyment, frustration and satisfaction.

Ian

[martin107Participant @martin107]

Many Thanks Ian,

I got it home ok yesterday and even got the wife to help me lift it on to the bench, told you she was a tough old bird LOL,everything seems to be working ok and will have a proper play today first off it will be a quick nip up to RDG for a chuck, cutting oil and a few things like a DTI as you suggested then I can turn big lumps of metal to small lumps of metal.

Nice to meet you yesterday

ATB

Martin

[John MCParticipant @johnmc39344]

On the question of whether or not the tool holder should be pushed or pulled against the tool post for rigidity I quote from the Bergstrom Quick set tool post sales literature;

"Tri-lateral design. The large contact surfaces ensure positive clamping without vibration and chatter."

Sales literature here; http://www.lathes.co.uk/bergstrom/

Rigidity in any machining operation is fundamental to success, I would urge anyone buying a QCTP to consider this.

John

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by John MC on 02/10/2017 07:59:42:

On the question of whether or not the tool holder should be pushed or pulled against the tool post for rigidity I quote from the Bergstrom Quick set tool post sales literature;

"Tri-lateral design. The large contact surfaces ensure positive clamping without vibration and chatter."

Sales literature here; http://www.lathes.co.uk/bergstrom/

Rigidity in any machining operation is fundamental to success, I would urge anyone buying a QCTP to consider this.

John

Well that's another new one on me, <edit> just realised the dovetails pull the holder back against the flat surfaces either side – that is clever.

It must be very expensive because unless the tabs on the dovetails are a perfect fit in the slots they will twist. I judge that a piston version is better for home make as it doesn't matter if the piston twists.

Neil

Edited By Neil Wyatt on 02/10/2017 08:33:38

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

The Bergstrom sprung parting tool holder works like a swan neck tool.

A curious irony of a sprung tool attached to a remarkably rigid toolpost.

Clearly both rigidity OR spring that causes the tool to move out of the cut can work.

Neil

[John MCParticipant @johnmc39344]

From memory I believe the whole "dovetail" in the tool post moves in and out to lock and release the holder so some very accurate work was required to ensure repeatable setting. Yes, they were (are?) expensive, again if memory serves, half as much again as a Dickson.

A large local, to me, engineering company had Bergstrom QCTPs on there very hard worked NC lathes, the tool posts where replaced with Dickson products because of wear in the Bergstrom posts.

John

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Useful Bergström Patent here: **LINK**

https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/originalDocument?CC=GB&NR=661450A&KC=A&FT=D&ND=3&date=19511121&DB=EPODOC&locale=en_EP

MichaelG.

[David ColwillParticipant @davidcolwill19261]

All this talk about quick change. Has anyone ever timed how long they take! I have 5 different types all have there pros and cons. They are:-

Multifix. Very repeatable very expensive. Toolholders are impossible to make Very nice though.

Dickson. Toolholders are more common but hard to make but still a good system.

Dovetail type model 200 (as sold by Arc) I really like these. They are repeatable enough for my needs and you can easily make new toolholders.

Dean Smith and Grace type. Very solid but hard to find the holders at a sensible cost. Wouldn't be too dificult to make though.

All of the above are great if you have a massive range of tools but quick change they are not. If you want speed you have to go to number 5 on the list.

Herbert 2D 4 way toolpost. I tried to time a tool change with this but couldn't easily do it. So I changed from 1 to 2 to 3 to 4 and back to 1. It took just under 3 seconds. Obviously you can only hold 4 tools and then you have the issue with boring bars and turning tools in the same configuration but all the same it is a pretty impressive thing.

I recently bought a load of them off ebay and plan to take one apart to see what makes it tick.

Just my thoughts.

David

[Ian Skeldon 2Participant @ianskeldon2]

I have a Dickson type (clone) toolpost also sold as a boxford type, The piston pulls the tool holder in against the dove tails and looking at it in action I think Neil has a good point. This type only has the edges of the piston crown pulling the tool in, I guess th epush type uses the whole face of the piston and thus has a greater area/friction etc.

But as often, I could be wrong

[MWParticipant @mw27036]

QCTP's are the business, I don't know anyone who got one and decided to turn back.

The use of them soon turns into the proliferation of tool holders, FOR EVERY SINGLE TOOL!

So my point is if it was that bad, then why does this development seem so common among M.E's, is it because they might actually be a good idea?

Like I said, find someone who got one, decided it wasn't for them, and turned back. I can't find a single guy, so what gives? Even all the tool rooms I've worked in used them.

So arguing against their versatility is a moot point, it's already well proven, the only argument you can rest on is personal preference or expense. 

Michael W

 

Edited By Michael-w on 02/10/2017 19:20:07

[SamsarandaParticipant @samsaranda]

After many frustrating years of fumbling with assorted packing pieces on my 4 way tool post I decided to indulge in a quick change tool post. I purchased the "Dixon" type from RDG Tools, I was very pleased with the finish of the item, it was nicely ground all over. When I came to fit it to my lathe ( a warco bv20 ) the mounting stud is twelve mm and the clearance hole through the tool post was only 11.2 MM so I was faced with opening out a hardened steel hole, not an easy task. My mill,a Chester V20, doesn't have a coolant system so I thought if I take it easy with a 12 MM Cobalt drill it should manage to open it out. Ever the optimist I embarked on the task only to find progress was extremely slow and eventually ground to a halt, too much heat was being generated to make any progress, I tried an end mill and that was a no go as well. Reflecting on the problem I realised that I would need to flood the operation with coolant so would need to construct a temporary coolant system to experiment with. Then a thought flashed through my muddled brain how about some form of diamond cutting tool, I remember seeing that Arceurotrade sell diamond core drills for cutting ceramics and glass, fortunately they sell a 12 MM one. I remember reading that someone recommends them for removing broken taps. Armed with the diamond core drill I resumed the task and found that it cut through almost like a knife through butter, success at last but it rendered the core drill scrap, not a problem as it was a small price to pay for achieving the objective. The QCTP is now installed and operational, have already purchased more tool holders to build a collection of ready to use tools. No connection with either retailers mentioned, just a happy and satisfied customer.

Dave

[Nick Taylor 2Participant @nicktaylor2]

Another vote for the RDG 'Dickson' tool posts. I use the T1 size on my Chipmaster and have a mixture of original Colchester and new RDG holders and they all fit the Colchester branded Dickson perfectly.

As well as a quick change tool post I would say that a quick change gearbox is also a huge leap forward in usability. Utterly necessary? No of course not, but they mean less time faffing and more time actually enjoying my hobby.

[Andrew TinsleyParticipant @andrewtinsley63637]

I am the proud owner of a couple of Dickson units and maybe 15 toolholders. Nicely made by the person who used to make them for Myford. I am very pleased with them, but there are some drawbacks.

At least in the Myford size, they are less rigid than the old fashioned Myford clamping system. I do not think this is any deficiency in the manufacturing, simply in design.

The other snag is that if you are doing really precise, repetition work, they don't cut the mustard. I have a GHT 4 position tool holder and this gives appreciable better repetitive results.

I made this GHT design a goodly time ago and was muttering under my breath that I didn't really believe George's claim about the repetition accuracy. Well he was right! I got my Dickson system later on. It is an excellent way of swopping tools especially if you have oddball things.

It really depends on what you are looking for with your toolholder. The Dickson system doesn't have it all its own way! There is room for both systems. and I am honest enough to admit this! So reflect a little and don't divide into two camps over this subject!

Andrew.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Well I have a wedge type to try out on the SC4 soon, but for the first article on turning I will use HSS in the 4-way toolpost as that's where 99% of beginners will start.

Neil

[jimmy bParticipant @jimmyb]

Out of interest what size wedge?

jim

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