Hardinge HLV

[James Jenkins 1Participant @jamesjenkins1]

Hello all,

I am looking at a Hardinge HLV lathe, not the H model, but the narrow bed earlier one. I am need to do some acurate turning that is beyond my exisiting lathe and I have been looking at the Hardinge's for a while.

Does anyone have any experience of these non-H lathes? Are they still as good as the H models?

I'm struggling to find much information about them. Such as what collets they use and if the bore has a morse taper.

The tail stock is also a bit of a mystery – is that a morse taper or the collet arrangement?

Any first hand experience would be helpful.

Many thanks,

James

[James Jenkins 1Participant @jamesjenkins1]

[Pete RimmerParticipant @peterimmer30576]

I just sold mine, was 95% rebuilt with ground bed, scraped ways, new bearings, new motor , vfd. My friend now has it.

Headstock spindle takes a 5c collet directly in the taper. Chucks fit on the 4 degrees taper OD on the spindle although there were some screw-on versions. Tailstock is Morse 2 taper.

If you're going to look at one check inside the suds tank behind the bed. If it's got water based coolant in it then the apron probably has extensive rust damage in the gearing. Try the sliding and facing feeds to make sure they work and don't make horrible crunching noises behind the levers. Another sign of coolant damage.

If it runs smoothly and the feeds move nicely, and the coolant taks is not full of powdery corrosion or water based coolant then it should be a nice machine. For sure, a nice one will be as accurate a machine as anyone would ever want they really are (were) very well made and superbly accurate.

Edited By Pete Rimmer on 28/07/2022 22:42:43

[James Jenkins 1Participant @jamesjenkins1]

Hi Pete,

Thanks so much for your message – it sounds like your friend got a lovely lathe.

Thanks also for your check list. I was planning on taking a dti on a stand, to check for movement in the bearings by putting a bar in the chuck and lifitng upwards. Likewise I was going to try and check the ways using a stand and dti. The owner is very happy for me to do tests, but sadly it doesn't come with any collets, only the two three jaw chucks. I have a between centres calibration bar – so I can machine a centre in one of the chucks and then put a dead centre in the tail, then run a dti down the length of it.

Can you think of anything else I should be testing?

I was wondering about a straight edge on two parrelles at each end of the bed and then dti on the carriage to check for dips in the bed?

Am I right in thinking that these non-H lathes had the same spec in terms of capacity? 11" over the bed and 18" between centres?

Many thanks,

James

[BazParticipant @baz89810]

I agree about the coolant but they were industrial machines so most have been used with coolant, place I used to work used water only, reason being they were machining components containing magnesium oxide powder and it was ok to get it wet with water but not oil, the oil could not be removed but the water could be dried out in an oven, the components were stored in an oven overnight, the damage the water caused had to be seen to be believed. I wouldn’t waste my time checking headstock bearings, if they are good it will run quietly, if they are shot you will soon hear it. If the machine doesn’t have collets has it got the collet closer or drawbar with it?

[Mark RandParticipant @markrand96270]

Basically, what Pete, has said. Water based coolant does horrible things to the apron gearbox. I had to re-manufacture all of the gears shafts and bearings in mine. Nice lathe now

The simplest way to check bed wear is to measure the thickness of the bed along the front edge and note the differences between the headstock and tailstock ends. You can get a 1" micrometer far enough on to do the job. The original was 0.75" thick and any wear will be obvious. The ear on the dovetail faces will be of a similar magnitude, but this takes a jig to measure. Mine had 8 thou of difference, but is now better than a tenth, albeit a few thou thinner and shimmed up to restore the geometry.

In good condition they are wonderful machines. In bad condition they can be rebuilt, but it takes dedication and can cost a few bob, Parts are pretty much unobtainable, but there's little that can't be made from scratch. The HLV-H is better in many ways, but compared with the average Myford, Boxford, Warco etc. they are in a completely different league.

[James Jenkins 1Participant @jamesjenkins1]

Thanks so much for all your helpful suggestions. I am coming from a Myford M Navy long bed. It's sort of served it's purpose, but the headstock has a lot of movement and so does the tail stock, which prevents really fine turning. I need to make some rollers for one of our printing presses and over 15" I need to get the ends turn to within 1 thou, between centres. I'm hoping that the Hardinge will be capable of this?

I'm also very wary of jumping out of the frying pan and into the fire, having had a bit of a dud lathe before. So I want to take my time and check it is right. My suggestion of testing the headstock with a bar was based on the Myford, but perhaps I was forgetting the difference between a plain and roller/ball bearing.

The prices of HLV-H Lathes seems to be much more, with them generally coming from dealers. So I think as a middle ground and step up (not to mention a lathe that should allow me to grow as an ametuer engineer) this might be a good option – scream if you think otherwise!

I'm concerned about how hard it might be to get 'essential' parts like a steady, but weigh that agains the quality.

Again all and any thoughts very welcome – I'm nervous to say the least!

James

[Clive FosterParticipant @clivefoster55965]

When considering any affordable Hardinge its important to remember that a Hardinge doesn't do well once relegated to ordinary and "that dirty old lathe in the corner" duties.

If not adequately looked after they rapidly decline to Colchester and below levels of performance. As Mark says sorting all the details to restore proper Hardinge level performance takes dedication, a deep(ish) pocket and understanding of the many details that make a Hardinge what its is.

Before I bought my Smart & Brown 1024VSL I looked at several affordable Hardinge in "imperfect" environments where they were being used as ordinary machines. Although still working reasonably well it was clear that a heck of a lot of effort would be needed to bring them back to the expected levels of performance.

I saw no point in buying a Hardinge and getting older Colchester performance.

The problem is that a clean Hardinge from its proper environment will either be very expensive or have had a long working life and be suffering from sufficient honest wear that its performance and accuracy will be, by Hardinge standards, rather below par.

The unusual chuck mount really doesn't help if teh chcukcs with the machine are sufficiently well used to need replacement.

Clive

[BikepeteParticipant @bikepete]

I moved from a Myford ML7 to a narrow bed HLV, no regrets at all… just do try to get one with as many accessories as you can as you'll struggle to find them separately.

One thing not yet mentioned is powering it – do you have three phase?

The motor on mine (and I think most) is two speed three phase and 380V – and you don't really want to replace it as it's (a) ridiculously heavy and (b) super-finely balanced, allegedly…

I've done a VFD conversion with a step-up transformer (and some re-wiring of the electrics) to run it on single phase mains, but a rotary converter would be easier, assuming you don't have 'real' three phase on hand.

[Pete RimmerParticipant @peterimmer30576]

I took the Newman motor off mine and fitted a new Siemens motor. I think tha given the age of the whole thing there's no gain to be seen from keeping the 60yr old motor over a good quality modern one regardless of how well balanced it was in the day (that Siemens motor would set you back the best part of a grand new). i ripped out all of the wiring and fitted a VFD plus some modern contactors.

One very common fault on the HLV is the compound slide base tends to go convex because of how the clamping system works. When that happens the compound won't clamp firmly and people crank down on the eccentric locking pin until the end snaps off. If you buy one no matter how good it is, that base is sure to need milling or scraping flat so just accept the fact, it's not difficult to do.

[James Jenkins 1Participant @jamesjenkins1]

Hello everyone,

Thank you so much for all your advice, which is really appreciated.

We have 3-phase at our workshop, so that's not an issue thankfully.

I think your comment Clive about a poor Hardinge being worse than a good Colchester is strong one and something I will keep in mind.

I will also try to assess the condition of the gearing in the apron.

Sadly it doesn't come with any tooling, not even a set of collets. Just two three jaw chucks. A steady would have been really nice to have had.

I'm going to look in the morning, armed with everything I think I could need. I really want to try and avoid the hassle of a dud lathe and need something that I can work with straight away.

I'll probably take some readings and some photos and then come home to contemplate – luckily it is only 15 minutes up the road.

James

[James Jenkins 1Participant @jamesjenkins1]

Hi all,

I went and had a look at the lathe this morning. Alarm bells started ringing when I got there and found that the dealer had painted it. I went armed with a long list of things to check and all the tools to do so, but didn't get that far.

I took off the tail stock and slid the carriage to the end. I couldn't get my 24" straight edge in, but I could get the 18" one in, which showed a 9 thou hollow in the usual place. I don't know what this would have been had I been able to put an edge across the full length of the bed.

The dealer had no idea of the state of it and just said that most people came and turned the carriage wheel and that was good enough!

Shame as it was local and looked good in the images.

I'll have to have a think and try to work out the next move.

Thanks so much for all your help.

James

[Pete RimmerParticipant @peterimmer30576]

That IS the big problem with flat or dovetailed beds compared to vee way beds. On a dovetailed bed if you want to run the saddle right up to the tailstock end and the bed is worn you have to run the gib so loose that when it's up at the chuck end you have loads of front to back slop in the gib that holds the saddle square to the bed.

On a vee way bed it doesn't happen because gravity holds the saddle down onto the vee almost regardless of the amount of wear.

[James Jenkins 1Participant @jamesjenkins1]

Had a thought that has been in my head since looking at the lathe, can anyone guide me as to what it would cost to have the bed reground and scraped in? Any suggestions of companies to do it?

Any disadvantages to doing this?

Thanks,

James

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

My gut feeling is "run".

If there is nine thou and more of wear on the bed, the rest of the lathe will most likely be equally clapped out, ie very badly. Think carriage, cross slide, top slide tailstock base as far as grinding and scraping goes. Plus headstock bearings and possibly spindle. Chucks.. Gears. Pulleys Apron mechanisms. Lead screw. Cross slide screw. Half nuts. tailstock quill and body. And on and on.

If you want lathe restoration to become your main hobby, it will keep you busy for the next year or so.

My ML7 had half that amount of wear on its bed and every single piece on that lathe required reconditioning. Right down to the V-grooves in the pulleys. Not a single piece I can think of did not require attention, other than the change gears, which had not been used. It was an enjoyable project to bring it all back to spec but a major job even for someone with an engineering background.

If you are looking for something to do accurate turning, and don't have extensive engineering experience to recondition a precision machine tool from the ground up, you might be better looking elsewhere.

How accurate? On what size and type of parts? Something as simple as a Boxford in good condition might be all you need. After all, if you are looking for sub-one-thou, or sub-half-a-thou at least, accuracy you might really need a grinder not a lathe. Or a toolpost grinder for your existing lathe.

Edited By Hopper on 04/08/2022 08:13:43

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

I agree with Hopper. His point about the condition of the rest of the lathe is well-made: if the bed is badly worn, it's likely that other parts are also suspect. Best to understand the totality of what's needed because few of us have unlimited time and money! Beware! Although high-end manual lathes sell second-hand at very reasonable prices, you may have to pay full price for spares. A set of new bearings could cost much more than was paid for the whole machine.

Restoring machines is an interesting hobby in it's own right, but not when the lathe was bought to do work. A lathe that stops you doing what you need and costs a fortune to fix is no bargain.

Hopper also questions the need for accuracy. Most lathes will get to within a thou or 0.02mm without too much trouble. The advantage of machines like the Hardinge is they make achieving accuracy faster and easier; lesser machines require the operator to compensate for shortcomings. Skilled operators still get good results out of wonky lathes, it just takes longer. Therefore, although second-rate machines can be frustrating and the risk of spoiled parts is higher, they can be more than 'good enough' for amateur purposes. They're not a good choice for anyone needing to work fast and more accurately than 0.02mm but most hobbyists aren't in that category, are you?

So while a worn-out Hardinge is a heap of poo compared with a new one, it might be still be acceptable. But if it's too far gone, a new Chinese hobby lathe is a better bet, warts and all!

Buying second-hand, condition is everything. Doesn't matter how good the machine was when new, look at the condition it's in now, decide if the damage matters, and – if it does – work out if you can afford the time and money needed to fix it.

Dave

[James Jenkins 1Participant @jamesjenkins1]

Thanks so much to you both for your sage advice. I have no doubt that you are right about this particular lathe.

Our existing Myford M Long bed has too much wear in the headstock bearings and also too much movement in the tailstock shaft to enable accurate & repeatable work (by me anyway). The lack of ability to put work through the headstock (over 3/8" I think) is also a huge disadvantage.

We are commercial, rather than hobby, with both of us relying on our traditional letterpress printing using C19th & early C20th presses to pay the bills. The old boys always said that high quality presses needed to be within 3 thou, but with a number of moving parts per press, new parts need to be made to the thou, to enable this to happen.

In the current instance I need to turn two sets of three 15" shafts, 3/4" with 3/8" ends turned between centres. Then 6 'runners' shy of 1 1/2" in diameter and 1 1 /4" wide with a close fit 3/8" hole concentric to fit on the end of the shafts. I want to get everything as close to 1 thou as possible. This is a typical size part for me, although the shaft lengths are as long as I would expect to turn. (I'll post the drawing I have done below for interest)

Having spent a lot of time setting up the Myford and being frustrated, I'm really wanting to get this right this time, so we have something reliable and accurate for this and our future needs. I'm really looking for a tool-room quality lathe. That said we don't, by any means, have limitless amounts of money to spend nor the time for a full restoration.

All and any thoughts very welcome.

Thanks again,

James

[James Jenkins 1Participant @jamesjenkins1]

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Interesting work you are doing. The project you describe and the tolerance of one thou are easily achievable on any common lathe in good nick. Myford ML7, Boxford, Raglan etc in good condition. Boxford has the larger bore spindle and is a heavier lathe than Myfords and usually pretty good value for money. And of course there is any number of new Chinese lathes that could do the job too, but my knowledge of them is very limited. But mates who have the larger ones (300mm diameter swing etc) use them for some pretty serious work and within a thou no problem. More of a set and forget proposition than rebuilding an oldie, although sometimes the Chinese ones can need a bit of initial fettling, I am told.

You should be able to adjust the bearings on your existing Myford. Which "M" is it? M-Type, or ML1-4 or 7? M-Types and ML7s have adjustable headstock bearings and can do very accurate work when nice and tight. Use a fixed steady to get around the small hole up the spindle centre. Worn tailstock body is harder to fix. Either bore it out and make a larger quill. That was a common mod on M-Types to convert them to MT2 from MT1 tailstock. Or buy a good used tailstock.

EDIT: I see from your previous posts its an M-Type. Procedure for adjusting headstock bearings is available in the FILES section of the Drummondlathe group on groups.io LINK

And re Chinese lathes, the Sieg SC4 gets good raps from owners on this forum, as does service from its supplier Arc Eurotrade.

Although, if this is you  LINK I can see how an old Brit lathe would fit in with the heritage print shop and tweed looms!

Edited By Hopper on 04/08/2022 11:43:59

[James Jenkins 1Participant @jamesjenkins1]

Hi Hopper,

Thanks so much for your message. Yes, that's us! It's interesting work and we design and print too, which is the real fun. So we can go from an idea to a product. The print work requires fine tolerences, so we are used to working to tight margins – hence my need to get the lathe right.

I really like my Model M long bed/navy pattern and in many respects it's the right sized lathe for us. I also have a lot of tooling, so if we could get it to work I would be happy and would spend some money and time to do so.

However, it does have some problems.

I have tightened and tightened the headstock, until it barely moves, but there is still play in it (bar in the chuck and dti to test). I assume (although I haven't checked) that the bronze bearings have worn, rather than the shaft.

There is movement in the tailstock as I say – perhaps even the MT1 socket has wear so that the dead centre moves or isn't locating perfectly?

The action on the slides isn't as smooth as I would like and tightens up at the ends due to wear. I suspect there is some movement too.

I haven't ever checked the bed – it would be interesting to do so.

If this lathe is beyond (my) help or pockets and I have to replace it I would go for something bigger and more capable, I wouldn't replace like with like – unless I happened to know it was really spot on.

All and any thoughts on if/how I could get it working to the level we need it would be very welcome – including names of companies or people that could help with some of the work. Keeping it would have many advantages, but it would need to work right.

James

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Cool old heritage business. Great stuff.

Myford may be able to regrind the bed for you — at the Myford price. There used to be another mob mentioned on the forum, called Slideway Services but I think the gent has retired now. Not sure.

Sounds like perhaps the holes in the bronze headstock bearings have worn oval shaped perhaps? When adjusting mine I find you have to free up those little wedge blocks the adjuster screws bear on every time. Then set the slotted bronze rings until the spindle gets a bit tight, then when you tighten up the adjuster screws it loosens up just that little bit to allow free movement.

Are you running the DTI on the spindle itself and not on the bar held in the chuck when checking for radial movement? Those old chucks can be quite bell mouthed and allow the held job to wiggle about.

Tailstock movement could be several things. You can get an MT1 reamer to clean the internal taper up to make sure the centre is seating right. There is also adjustment on the front side of the tailstock base to tighten up the angled gib strip so the tailstock body can not move from side to side. Then there is the fit of the quill in the body that can move a bit when you tighten up the clamping lever. About all you can do about that is set the tailstock offset to turn true with the quill clamped and then always clamp the quill.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Why can't you buy 3/4" precision ground steel, clock it true in a 4-jaw and machine the 3/8" spigots, got to be easier than turning the long length.

Other parts can be done at one setting in the lathe so even an import could manage that.

[Pete RimmerParticipant @peterimmer30576]

You can't put 3/4" up the hole on a ML7 but you could hold one end in a 3- or 4-jaw and run the other in a fixed steady. It would turn on it's own axis then with no need for clocking in. The two diameters would be completely concentric.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

I was thinking that even with a bigger bore lathe (Hardinge or otherwise) it's got to be a better option than completely machining from nominal 20mm bar.

Yes if on the existing Yyford then fixed steady either for all or just to face the ends and ctr drill then turn with tailstock support.

[James Jenkins 1Participant @jamesjenkins1]

Thanks for your messages everyone.

The rollers have their rubber put on and then ground between centres. So I would need to get the centre holes spot on if I used ground stock. Instead my plan was to centre hole a piece of 7/8" and then turn to dimension from there.

This is actually where the difficulty often comes with these printing rollers. The rollers are covered using the centre holes, but then on the presses we reference off the runners and the 3/8" turned end of shaft. This can lead to issues if they are not really well made and these outer surfaces are not concentrict with the centre holes.

I have contacted some machine renovation companies to get a quote for restoring the Myford lathe. One (Herbert Machine Tools) has come back very quickly and seems a good company (do email or message me if you know differently!).

Kind regards,

James

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