Halifax 524 Headstock

[David DwyerParticipant @daviddwyer21779]

After having a Myford ml7 stolen from my workshop along with £25.000.00 worth other tools etc ive been trying to re-build my collection of tool so yesterday I purchased the Halifax 524.

when I've got it home and checked over it to my horror I noticed a big crack below the headstock casting.

I would be greatful for any suggestion on how to repair this or if this part can be purchased or even re-cast

Thanks

[David DwyerParticipant @daviddwyer21779]

Any Advice on Fractured Headstock Casting

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Some photos would probably help, David

… ‘though it may be difficult to take them in your distressed state.

Meanwhile: this seems to indicate that the Halifax is a near clone of the Atlas:

**LINK**

http://www.lathes.co.uk/atlas/page9.html

MichaelG.

[Brian WoodParticipant @brianwood45127]

David,

What rotten luck for you..

From what I was able to judge from the pictures you have in your album it looks to be the location/alignment tongue between the bedways that has separated from the headstock casting.

I fear you may need some professional help to replace the tongue with a piece let into and secured to the underside of the headstock. I imagine there will be alignment screws bearing on the tongue through, most probably, the rear shear so that the headstock can be slewed slightly and correctly aimed along the bed, using a test bar in the spindle socket to check progress.

All this will need to be done cold I think. With the greatest regard for a skilled welder, any concentrated heat in the area will introduce stress and potentially add to the damage.

Before any salvage work can be done you need to remove the headstock to assess the full extent of the cracking but before you proceed with that, are you quite positive that this is not some local feature masquerading as a crack in bad lighting? .It does seem to have an unlikely form to my eye.

Regards Brian

Edit. Looking again at picture 2 I can see a gap between the headstock and the bed which is of similar width to the crack and what seems to be a clamp strip below the tongue. It is almost as if the headstock and bed have been forced apart and torn off the tongue in the process.

 

Edited By Brian Wood on 22/06/2020 15:14:48

[David DwyerParticipant @daviddwyer21779]

Hi Brian thanks for your advice, I've just finished taking the lathe apart and discovered even more damage which is very disheartening.

What I found was at the rear of the Headstock were it's fastened to the bed with 2 bolts the corners of the bed have also snapped off

This next photo shows the damage to front of Headstock were it sits on the lathe bed and would be held in place with a thick piece of metal and bolt that clamps the Headstock to the bed.

[Brian WoodParticipant @brianwood45127]

Hello David,

Oh dear, it just gets worse I'm sad to say.

To be honest I really don't know what to advise. My suspicion that force has been used to lever up the front of the headstock seems to be confirmed by the broken off corners at the other end which look as though they have failed downwards by leverage from the bolts..

I find it hard to believe the vendor was ignorant of the situation, there was in effect nothing holding the headstock in position other than gravity. Do you have any hope of recompense with him?

Kind regards Brian.

Edit. Perhaps a more likely cause was that the front bolt was pulled up so hard it broke off the mounting but the lathe was used after that and belt tension would have completed the damage at the far end 

Edited By Brian Wood on 22/06/2020 17:44:57

[David DwyerParticipant @daviddwyer21779]

It certainly is bad luck for me Brian and I partly blame myself but I also think the seller new and should have advertised it as spurs/repair.

I have messaged the seller and sent some pictures about the damage and he messaged back saying he would speak to his as it was his but I dealt with his son.

like you said there is a gap between the clamp and the tongue so maybe it's been over tightened and the stress over time has cracked and its had a knock on effect to the rear of the bed snapping the corners or maybe have been knocked over some time in its life. Who knows!!

So for now buddy I will have to do more research on the web and use my skill to find a solution.

Cheers

[Brian WoodParticipant @brianwood45127]

Hello David,

I hope you get some satisfaction out of this, I cannot believe damage of this kind would go unnoticed.

As for a solution I fear it has gone beyond economic repair. Even if it can be cobbled together it will be most unlikely to turn out decent work and you will be left with the unenviable task of selling it on ' for spares'

I wish you well

Brian

[OldironParticipant @oldiron]

If you got the Halifax via Ebay you can get recompense if you make a claim for "not as advertised". Where ever you got it from it should be fit for purpose which it is clearly not. Did you collect it or was it delivered by a haulage firm that dropped it along the way or picked it up incorrectly ?

I hope you get a good result from any claim. I don't think I would even want to get it repaired as I would forever be worrying about it.

Good luck. regards

[Phil WhitleyParticipant @philwhitley94135]

I would make a block of metal to fit inside the hollow heastock casting, secured with two allen bolts through the end of the headstock, and two into the bottom of the block from underneath the spindle, then clamp the broken peice back into position, and drill and counterbore through into the block with another two allen screws. Transfer punch through the threaded hole onto the block, then remove the broken peice, drill the block tapping size, replace the broken off piece, and tap through the existing thread into the block, and fit a longer stud.

For the broken ends of the bed, they will neede brazing back on, but first make up two plates to fit under the bed to spread the load to as much as possible of the unbroken area, then clamp the plate on and braze the casting back together, you are going to need a lot of pre heat, or you might do it by TIG brazing it. Awkward and time consuming, but I think it could be done.

[old martParticipant @oldmart]

If you have to, it can be repaired quite well. I would make sure the fractured edges are clean and dry, and using araldite, clamp them together with g clamps. The fact that it is a casting has the advantage of not distorting, so the parts should fit perfectly. Then drill the central threaded hole right through at the bolt diameter. Then the glued on part will not have any stresses on it except tension. A block will have to fit underneath with a tapped hole to take a longer stud or bolt. It might be possible to fit the two broken bits in place and have a plate covering them to take the bolt loading.

[egaParticipant @ega]

A sorry story and it would be good to know you were insured for the theft.

[David DwyerParticipant @daviddwyer21779]

Hi phil

I absolutely agree 100% that this idea would be the best way to repair this Headstock I was thinking very similar earlier.

I thought about filling the front inside part of the Headstock casting with molten metal to help support it and then tap threads through the casting into the inside metal block..the only problem is it might crack unless its brought upto temperature and cooled down slowly..

Also thought about using JB weld to line the inside of the Headstock casting and like you said put a metal block inside which can be tapped ready for allen bolts

In the photo I have drawn a bit of I diagram if you can decipher it lol

[David DwyerParticipant @daviddwyer21779]

Hi phil

I absolutely agree 100% that this idea would be the best way to repair this Headstock I was thinking very similar earlier.

I thought about filling the front inside part of the Headstock casting with molten metal to help support it and then tap threads through the casting into the inside metal block..the only problem is it might crack unless its brought upto temperature and cooled down slowly..

Also thought about using JB weld to line the inside of the Headstock casting and like you said put a metal block inside which can be tapped ready for allen bolts

In the photo I have drawn a bit of I diagram if you can decipher it lol

[David DwyerParticipant @daviddwyer21779]

Hi old mart

The idea is well worth looking into and I think if Done properly it could work and be strong if not stronger than it was originally.

Hello ega

Unfortunately I wasn't insured at the time so lost everything apart from my RMZ250 motocross bike which the police had apprehended two males driving a stolen citroen c2 with it half hanging out the boot.

They were arested then released without charge and I had to pay £160 to get it back from the police compound.

The justice system gone mad.

[Ex contributorParticipant @mgnbuk]

That looks to me to have been caused by lifting the machine with a sling around the spindle – a tactic I have seen machinery movers use on several occasions & it always makes me cringe.

Nigel B.

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Posted by mgnbuk on 23/06/2020 07:39:27:

That looks to me to have been caused by lifting the machine with a sling around the spindle – a tactic I have seen machinery movers use on several occasions & it always makes me cringe.

Nigel B.

Plus one on that.

[OldironParticipant @oldiron]

Posted by Brian Wood on 22/06/2020 18:17:40:

Hello David,

I hope you get some satisfaction out of this, I cannot believe damage of this kind would go unnoticed.

As for a solution I fear it has gone beyond economic repair. Even if it can be cobbled together it will be most unlikely to turn out decent work and you will be left with the unenviable task of selling it on ' for spares'

I wish you well

Brian

Hi David

I totally agree with Brian here. It is unlikely that this lathe will ever turn out decent work again. If the vendor will refund your money, take it. This lathe will be almost worthless if you try to sell it at a later date. Why people would recommend a repair on a newly acquired lathe I have no idea. I could understand trying to do a repair if you had dropped it yourself but if sold like that with no mention of the damage by the vendor or the transporter you are entitled to a refund or recompense.

Good luck. regards

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

I agree with others, your best plan is to try and get your money back. I've found Citizen's Advice very helpful on similar matters, they dictated a suitably threatening email which stayed within the bounds of the law, but I suspect customer protection doesn't work too well if this was a private sale.

[OldironParticipant @oldiron]

Extract from **LINK**

 

"If you make a purchase and it’s a private sale, the law states that the goods you receive must match the description in the advert. When you buy from a private seller, the returns process isn’t as straightforward and it is often difficulty to reject faulty goods and receive a full refund.

You may be able to claim compensation but only if a contract has been broken. If, for example the seller stated that something was in good working order but then you received it and it turned out to be faulty you may be able to claim compensation. However it can be very difficult to prove that the seller said this unless it was in an email or written form. The level of compensation that you can claim will depend on the nature of the problem and whether it caused any injury."

 

If the buyer did not mention the damage in the advert or in person I read the above as you can get a refund or compensation. If they are reluctant to reimburse you it may pay quote the above.

 

HTH regards

Edited By Oldiron on 23/06/2020 14:23:33

[David DwyerParticipant @daviddwyer21779]

I have looked at the original photograph of the lathe that was used for the advert on Market place.

It shows the lathe in a corner of a building, and when I first spoke to the owner about it he pointed over to that corner and said "that's were the lathe had been stood for 20years" although the lathe had been moved with a fork truck by the time I had arrived to view it (pictured below).

A closer image of the original photo before the lathe was moved, a crack is visible
(pictured below).

On further inspection of a photograph which I had taken with my mobil phone shows the damage was already present whilst at the sellers premises(pictured below).

I also recall the owner telling me that he had used the lathe only a couple of days prior to me buying, to shave a piece of metal.
If this was true, I'm sure he would have noticed the loose Headstock.
In hindsight the price should have alerted me that something wasn't quite right with this sale, apart from that there wasn't anything else that give me any reason to doubt the word of this man and his family, and I believed the money that i handed over was going to a genuine seller.
I mentioned to him about my tools being stolen last year and how greatfull I was to now be the owner of this machine and we chatted for ages, he even showed me around his other workshops on the property in Southport of his collection of army jeeps one of which was the Willys Jeep (worth a fortune) that he allowed me to take a photograph of (picture below).

The sellers son messaged me yesterday saying he would speak to his dad about this issue and I have messaged him back this morning asking if he spoke to his dad but as of yet I've had no reply.
Slowly the realisation of being ripped off is beginning to sink in and any chance of a refund is highly unlikely.
I'm very appreciative of all the advice that's been given so far on this forum around buying and selling laws and the ideas that members have come up with to help me to repair the lathe.
At this moment in time there isn't much more I can do but wait to see if either the seller or his son contact me to resolve this issue.

Regards

Dave

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Youch. Being that you inspected it in person and accepted it as is , crack and all, you probably dont have much of a legal leg to stand on. You have to rely on the human decency of the seller to do the right thing. Youch.

[Phil WhitleyParticipant @philwhitley94135]

I think that the idea that "it will never turn out good work" is completely erroneus. the only purpose these fixings serve is to hold the headstock down to the bed, the alignment and accuracy comes from the machined surfaces on the bed and the headstock. It will be neccasary to check the alignment after a fix has been done, but that would be the case if the headstock had been removed anyway. It is a sad case indeed, but if the OP is not getting a refund. and the lathe needs a rebuild anyway, what do you have to loose? I wish him evert sucess with it! In life, it is the journey that is enjoyable, not the destination, and a plague and a pox on the foul scumbags that stole from you!

Phil

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by David Dwyer on 22/06/2020 16:47:18:

.

.

Looking at the underside of that casting … it appears that there are no additional parts in the cavity:

Therefore, my approach [once I had recovered from the shock] would be to fill it with epoxy ‘granite’ and incorporate improved fixings.

Have a look at forum posts by John McNamara, and also search for Granitan

MichaelG.

[Jeff DaymanParticipant @jeffdayman43397]

I'm with Phil, I think the headstock can be fixed with no loss of accuracy. Ways look intact. Looks like lots of metal below the broken bit that could be used to take some threaded holes for longer bolts up from the bottom under the bed anchor plate. For alignment across the bed, maybe a new block close fitted to the bed gap could be used, fastened to a plate bolted where the broken bit is, with adjuster screws like a tailstock adjuster. (The mounting screws could pass through this lot in large clearance holes.) The across-bed alignment would only need to be set once during centres alignment after the repair, then locked in place with setscrew-on-setscrew method. New anchor plates headstock to bed can be made also, if need be, from cast iron bar or mild steel.

As long as the ways on the headstock and the bed are not broken out it can be saved and will make lots of good work for years to come.

[Author]

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