Cost of Raw Materials

[WannabewelderParticipant @wannabewelder]

Being a beginner I'm intrigued by the cost, if you start from scratch and manufacture from raw materials, of some of the projects in Model Engineers Workshop.

I appreciate the “hassle factor” that suppliers have of having to deal with small pieces of (relatively) low cost materials plus the cost of cutting, collating, packing and despatching but often the material cost appears to far exceed the cost of a purchased item.

I recall comments from David Clark in a recent editorial suggesting that 2013 would be the year to obtain capital equipment as prices were unlikely ever to be cheaper but this seems to be far from the case with raw materials.

I guess the “old hands” will have “odds & ends” bins that have built up over the years but newbies won't be as fortunate.

I wonder if in some cases it's possible to purchase a “consumer” type tool / item and then reuse it – the mole grip to drill press clamp in a recent edition of MEW is a (not too good) example of what I mean, but there must be many other examples. For example buy a crowbar as an alternative to a length of hex. bar. Obviously the material would be critical but maybe good enough.

Could some of the “old hands” advise what “substitutions” could be made or advise good sources of low cost materials?

Regards

Wannabe

[WannabewelderParticipant @wannabewelder]

Being a beginner I'm intrigued by the cost, if you start from scratch and manufacture from raw materials, of some of the projects in Model Engineers Workshop.

I appreciate the “hassle factor” that suppliers have of having to deal with small pieces of (relatively) low cost materials plus the cost of cutting, collating, packing and despatching but often the material cost appears to far exceed the cost of a purchased item.

I recall comments from David Clark in a recent editorial suggesting that 2013 would be the year to obtain capital equipment as prices were unlikely ever to be cheaper but this seems to be far from the case with raw materials.

I guess the “old hands” will have “odds & ends” bins that have built up over the years but newbies won't be as fortunate.

I wonder if in some cases it's possible to purchase a “consumer” type tool / item and then reuse it – the mole grip to drill press clamp in a recent edition of MEW is a (not too good) example of what I mean, but there must be many other examples. For example buy a crowbar as an alternative to a length of hex. bar. Obviously the material would be critical but maybe good enough.

Could some of the “old hands” advise what “substitutions” could be made or advise good sources of low cost materials?

Regards

Wannabe

[WannabewelderParticipant @wannabewelder]

Consumer materials in place of the real thing

[Sub MandrelParticipant @submandrel]

Hi Wannabe,

Small quantities of small sizes will always be costly, but for larger sections the best you can do is identify a local steel stockholder or an engineering works and visit them ocassionally to stock up on short ends. The stockholder I go to keeps about 20' of racking with shortends, mostly labelled with the material spec at very reasonable prices.They often have material in the office specifically set aside for model engineers.

You are right that sometimes you can buy something cheaper than buying the metal in it. Stainless steel waste bins are cheaper than stainless steel sheet! The use of the original material is a clue to what purposes it may suit. A crowbar will be a good medium carbon steel, tough but perhaps difficult to machine to a good finish. I recently needed some strong aluminium alloy, and ended up getting it from a long-replaced bicycle handlebar stem.

Neil

[Sub MandrelParticipant @submandrel]

Hi Wannabe,

Small quantities of small sizes will always be costly, but for larger sections the best you can do is identify a local steel stockholder or an engineering works and visit them ocassionally to stock up on short ends. The stockholder I go to keeps about 20' of racking with shortends, mostly labelled with the material spec at very reasonable prices.They often have material in the office specifically set aside for model engineers.

You are right that sometimes you can buy something cheaper than buying the metal in it. Stainless steel waste bins are cheaper than stainless steel sheet! The use of the original material is a clue to what purposes it may suit. A crowbar will be a good medium carbon steel, tough but perhaps difficult to machine to a good finish. I recently needed some strong aluminium alloy, and ended up getting it from a long-replaced bicycle handlebar stem.

Neil

[Ian PParticipant @ianp]

In this throwaway society we live (I don't!) there are lots of useful materials if you look for them, not always in obvious places.

Car windscreen wiper blade usually contains a strip of spring steel, sometimes stainless. The non plastic arms are a tough steel rectangular strip.

Old printers and fax machines (the older the better) have precision ground steel bars that machines beautifully, in addition of course to the motors, gears, circlips fixings etc.

Neil is right about stainless waste bins but sometimes the label does not always describe what is in the tin. Some manufacturers sell products purporting to be stainless, which it is, but only until the lacquer rubs off! 'Stainless Steel' now seems to be a type of finish, but they miss out the last word of 'Stainless Steel Effect'.

Ian P

[Ian PParticipant @ianp]

In this throwaway society we live (I don't!) there are lots of useful materials if you look for them, not always in obvious places.

Car windscreen wiper blade usually contains a strip of spring steel, sometimes stainless. The non plastic arms are a tough steel rectangular strip.

Old printers and fax machines (the older the better) have precision ground steel bars that machines beautifully, in addition of course to the motors, gears, circlips fixings etc.

Neil is right about stainless waste bins but sometimes the label does not always describe what is in the tin. Some manufacturers sell products purporting to be stainless, which it is, but only until the lacquer rubs off! 'Stainless Steel' now seems to be a type of finish, but they miss out the last word of 'Stainless Steel Effect'.

Ian P

[Bob PerkinsParticipant @bobperkins67044]

Hi Wannabe

i have found a friendly metal recycler that collects from some local engineering companies. He often has odds of brass and ally. I,ve avoided the steel as its often unclear what it is. The price is scrap not stock. Try you yellow pages. Is there still yellow pages ? My odds bin is gradually filling up.

Bob..

[Bob PerkinsParticipant @bobperkins67044]

Hi Wannabe

i have found a friendly metal recycler that collects from some local engineering companies. He often has odds of brass and ally. I,ve avoided the steel as its often unclear what it is. The price is scrap not stock. Try you yellow pages. Is there still yellow pages ? My odds bin is gradually filling up.

Bob..

[Sandy MortonParticipant @sandymorton10620]

I have found that the relatively local Metal Supermarket have an offcut bin which they are happy to dispose of at very economic rates. Trouble for me is that it's about 26 miles and a ferry crossing away but it does give SWAMBO the opporchancity to buy another supermarket

[Sandy MortonParticipant @sandymorton10620]

I have found that the relatively local Metal Supermarket have an offcut bin which they are happy to dispose of at very economic rates. Trouble for me is that it's about 26 miles and a ferry crossing away but it does give SWAMBO the opporchancity to buy another supermarket

[Mark P.Participant @markp]

I find that a lot of fleabay shops have metal at very reasonable prices bought a 12"x2"x6" slab of ally for less than 40 quid!

Mark P.

[MICHAEL WILLIAMSParticipant @michaelwilliams41215]

I've often wondered whether there was any scope for bulk collective purchasing in model engineering .

(1) Many of the more popular published construction designs follow a similar rate of takeup . A lot in the first few weeks and then a continuous trickle until design becomes time expired .

All those first constructors could register their interest , make payment and then a bulk purchase of materials could be made and distributed .

There used to be some suppliers that would happily put together these types of small quantity bespoke material kits and would also include bearings , screws and o rings if requested ..

(2) Many materials used are multipurpose – silver solder , smaller steel sections and brass and copper sheet being obvious examples .

It would be unreasonable for a single model engineering society to stockhold these things but a regional federation or a specially set up collective could .

Michael Williams .

[CuP AlloysParticipant @cupalloys]

DECLARED INTEREST

Clubs and socities already buy in bulk – or as much as their finances permit.

We are happy to do that and promote it.

But collectives already exist! They deal nationwide!

They include Chronos, Proops, Phoenix Paints, College Engineering, Blackgates and even CuP Alloys etc.

To improve (?) on this arrangement and have one big collective would require

• premises the size of a large supermarket for stockholding, packing, despatch. Consider rates? electricity? water? insurance? etc
• logistics
• staffing – wages? insurance? H&S? pensions? NI?
• ability to satisfy all manner of legislation
• speciality product knowledge to ensure the model engineer buys the best product to meet his needs and use it successfully
• finally in excessof £500,000 to stock the warehouse.

The new collective will take this on and offer better prices and service to the model engineer?

• From our point of view B&Q sell a brazing torch and some brazing alloy and solder.
• They are cheaper than those we sell – though not for the same product.
• Delivery is quicker – straight off the shelf – no hanging about for the postman.
• Ever asked a shelf stacker for technical help?

They are not a competitor to us. Nor, would I suggest, are they to the aforementioned companies.

What reason could there be why the likes of B&Q, with all their financial clout, don't sell over 150 products for joining metal, 100s' of grades of copper alloys and steels, paint in small pots, nuts, rivets, brushes to meet the requirements of the model engineer?

Could it be that the margins are not high enough?

The likes of a super collective cannot hope to compete with the collectives already in existence.

But then again, I could be wrong. The Southern and Northern Federation may be trying to pull all this together. A stockholding of 100 kg of silver solder repeated every 3 months (£70,000) plus the extras is a start. Now for the small steel sections, copper and brass sheet …………

Keith Hale

 

Edited By CuP Alloys on 14/05/2013 10:17:59

[Sub MandrelParticipant @submandrel]

I think one answer to Keith's observations is another question "have you ever bought metal bar from B&Q or Wickes?" If you have, it makes yer eyes water!

It will always be practical for a group of like-minded folk to pull together an order to buy a qantity of some material/object/service and get a good price. The problem, as Keith explains, is that this just doesn't scale.

We want the convenience of buy small quantities, we pay stockists for taking the risk of buying large amounts of material that may take years to shift.

On the other hand, it would be interesting to see what small, specialist suppliers could emerge in the future. I am sure that one day someone will set up a service to send cnc files to the far east, get rapid prototype patterns made and castings air freighted to the UK within a week or two. This already happens for printed circuit boards, with runs of 10 or fewer, or even singles, being cost-effective.

Neil

Edited By Stub Mandrel on 14/05/2013 20:23:28

[WannabewelderParticipant @wannabewelder]

Hi guys (incidentally, are there any female model engineers?)

I've just been reading the Metal Packs thread in this part of the forum and In some ways it echoes some of the thoughts expressed in this thread. I have to say though that some of the comments do seem a bit personal.

Thanks for all the helpful comments, I've learned a thing or two.

Stub Mandrel – I note your comments on the stainless steel waste bins. We have a “pound shop” close by and the pricing of finished articles is unbelieveable, especially when you consider they've been freighted halfway round the world.

I think I must be particularly unlucky with the local stockholder as, whenever I've gone to them for a quote, it's Parker Steel web prices and then some!!!! I also note the comments about B&Q pricing, and having had to make an emergency purchase of some ERW steel tube last week, I can confirm that I still feel the pain.

Ian

I've taken note of the printers etc. – something I'd not thought of.

Bob

I'll see what I can find on metal recyclers locally – plenty of copper wire available no doubt!!

Sandy

Is SWAMBO She Who Must ALWAYS Be Obeyed? I've come across SWMBO but SWAMBO takes things to a new level.

Mark

I too have had success with Fleabay – needed some Nylon 66 and was able to get what I needed at what I considered a reasonable price without using to RS Components – which would have been my last resort.

Bogstandard

Not thinking, when we had the windows changed a few years ago I regarded sash weights as scrap. I'll keep an eye out from now on.

Michael

This idea of yours for bulk purchasing could be good. I'm sure there are some catches but the fundamental idea could save everybody time and money. As an example I looked at the prices of the screws, usually Torx, that are sold for securing carbide inserts in tool holders and went “how much?” I know they're high tensile etc etc etc but…

As a final thought in Edition 203 of MEW Chester advert for angle plates 3 inches webbed £18.96 – fully finished, including VAT and free delivery

The College Engineering Supply Angle Plate With Slots – 501 rough casting £17.10 Postage and packaging: £7.80 Total £24.90

It's probably not fair picking these two companies out as I'm sure there are plenty of other examples but….

Regards

Wannabe

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Hardly an equal comparrison on the angle plates

Cester measures 3"x2.5"x2"

CES 120x80x80mm

Equavalent size from Chester would be about £35

J

PS Yes there are some very capable female model engineers

[jason udallParticipant @jasonudall57142]

Wannabe…You are not alone in that observation “kits” are often more expensive than mass produced items (no comment on finished items quality implied) the materials alone often widely exceed the finished item equivalent
This is not always profiteering but simply an issue of scale…and yes many of us will look at lidles or aldi and takea finished Item to modify /improve..many cry a little over what the plain material would have cost
…I seem to remember the tail of the Aston Martin company new owner wants a car and asks how much. ..a price is quoted…ah but I own the company
.lets have one at cost. .another eye watering (higher) price is quoted. ..

Edited By jason udall on 20/05/2013 13:55:17

[WannabewelderParticipant @wannabewelder]

Hi Jason B

What about machining allowance (and bear in mind you haven't seen my attempts at machining!)

Seriously though, I take your point, not the best comparison.

And Jason U – I love the story! And I guess the whole point of the original post was to see where ingenuity would allow a cheap, “commercial” item to be utilised in way that it was never intended it would be; for example the sash weights.

I remember a quote allegedly from the Duke of Wellington (although I have also seen it attributed to Henry Ford) “An engineer is someone who can make for 10 shillings what any b…y fool can make for a pound”

Food for thought and thanks to all for taking the time and trouble to respond

Wannabe

[mechman48Participant @mechman48]

Maybe not in the right forum but I reckon comes under 'materials' as angle plates are mentioned;

Bought a vee angle plate from RDG at the Harrowgate exhib' last week, new style with 'T ' slots, 5"x3"x3" (RDG cat. ref.2212, usual disclaimer) for less than the advertised catalogue price, I had checked out other dealers versions of the' normal type' & the quality was a lot to be desired to say the least, most slots out of alignment or milled off square to the drilled entry holes to mention a couple & only the smaller versions available. I reckon I got the best of the bunch & the 'T' slots will provide better fastening capability than the other types… you pays your money..etc. one reason I like to go.. you can 'see before you buy'.

George

[John McNamaraParticipant @johnmcnamara74883]

Hi All

Do not forget photocopiers… The bigger the better. They normally contain some very nice precision ground shafting. Keep an eye out.

Cheers

John

[Russell EberhardtParticipant @russelleberhardt48058]

Posted by Wannabewelder on 20/05/2013 13:04:05:

Hi guys (incidentally, are there any female model engineers?)

Yes, If you want to see the standard of work done by a female model engineer, have a look at the front cover of Model Engineer no.4366. (In digital editions).

Russell.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Or better stil the last dozen or so in this album – all the ones in glass cases

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

Postage costs are a killer. Ok if you happen to live near one of these stockists provided they don't charge the postage anyway if you collect like some of the firms at exhibitions. I need a sat nav download that beeps when I pass a metal stockist instead of where some roadwords were three years ago.

Recently found these people have stockists all over the place and have key steel and silver steel though not BMS.

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

After photo copiers etc., keep your eye open for car / truck shock absorbers, motor bike front forks.

Ian S C

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