Chinese lathes

[TerrydParticipant @terryd72465]

Posted by Tony Jeffree on 26/11/2010 13:26:54:

Posted by Scaublin120 Deckel fp1 on 26/11/2010 11:13:26:

Hi All

I have read all of the posts and can say the idea of buying a chineese lathe now is of no value, buy a used professional worksnop machine or a smaller bech mouted machine if that is what you are after, pultra,schaublin etc are good machines and come in many sizes.

I bought a schaublin and had to strip it and rebuild it make new lead screws adjust gibs replace oils etc but overall is that not part of owning a machine?

 

From what I have seen of the used market for big name lathes like Schaublin, you end up paying through the nose for a clapped-out old machine that needs extensive refurbishment even to bring it up to the level of the equivalent-sized Chinese import lathe straight out of the box, and you *still* end up paying significantly more for it than with the import ed machine.

 

I’m sorry – I simply don’t get the logic here.

 

Regards,

Tony

 

 

Hi Tony,

 

Not to mention the almost inevitable bed regrind for the well used machine if you want real accuracy and the almost inevitable lack of (expensive) spares.  I think a new Bentley might be cheaper

 

Terry

[Tony JeffreeParticipant @tonyjeffree56510]

Posted by Terryd on 26/11/2010 13:46:23:

Posted by Tony Jeffree on 26/11/2010 13:26:54:

Posted by Scaublin120 Deckel fp1 on 26/11/2010 11:13:26:

Hi All

I have read all of the posts and can say the idea of buying a chineese lathe now is of no value, buy a used professional worksnop machine or a smaller bech mouted machine if that is what you are after, pultra,schaublin etc are good machines and come in many sizes.

I bought a schaublin and had to strip it and rebuild it make new lead screws adjust gibs replace oils etc but overall is that not part of owning a machine?

 

From what I have seen of the used market for big name lathes like Schaublin, you end up paying through the nose for a clapped-out old machine that needs extensive refurbishment even to bring it up to the level of the equivalent-sized Chinese import lathe straight out of the box, and you *still* end up paying significantly more for it than with the import ed machine.

 

I’m sorry – I simply don’t get the logic here.

 

Regards,

Tony

 

 

Hi Tony,

 

Not to mention the almost inevitable bed regrind for the well used machine if you want real accuracy and the almost inevitable lack of (expensive) spares.  I think a new Bentley might be cheaper

 

Terry

 

 Hi Terry –

 

Exactly so. At least with Schaublin, the company is still in business, so spares for the older machines may still be available, but you’d better take out a mortgage to buy any; their new prices make Myford’s prices look cheap. I just took a look at the price of *used* Schaublin collets for an example – they seem to have a going rate of about £18 a pop. That is simply crazy.

 

Regards,

Tony

[Ian AbbottParticipant @ianabbott31222]

Hi Ketan,

 

Wife translates, I supply the engineering / colloquial input.

 

If we can help anytime, iabbott@ssisland.com

 

Ian 

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

OK Ian,

 

Will let you know if I get into a real tough position.

 

Thanks,

 

Ketan at ARC.

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Wot, with the wife or the translation ? 

 

John S

[Bill PudneyParticipant @billpudney37759]

About the cost of high quality lathes.  A friend has three Schaublin 70s which he bought new.  They are all well equipped and professionally used to make dental implants.  Each lathe cost in the order of A$27,000, thats about GBP16,200 at the moment. 

They are exquisite machines which are expertly used and since he bought the first one about 7 years ago, they have all paid for themselves several times over. 

 

He also has a small CNC swiss type lathe to do high quantity parts

 

Have you seen the cost of dental implants??  Which helps to explain the machine selection rationale.

 

They are VERY expensive,  but they work…………..

cheers

Bill Pudney

[Raymond AndersonParticipant @raymondanderson34407]

Hi all,

             I just thought that I would add my tuppence worth to this thread

In 2000 or 2001 I purchased from Warco a new GH750 lathe and since then it has only ever needed a replacement halogen bulb[and that was about 6weeks ago] It has seen a lot of use and is still performing accurately at this time, although I also now own a Dean Smith and Grace,  the GH 750 has never let me down  also I have no connection to Warco.

                                                      Regards to all,

                                                Raymond. 

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Raymond,

 

When the bulb went on the Warco GH750 did you contact trading standards as not fit for purpose ?

I know this was out of warranty but according to our bar room lawyers you can make claims AFTER the period if you state that the article should have a useful life and as seeing as Edisons very first light bulb is still working in the American precision Museum then this defines Prior art.

 

Don’t de fobbed off with crap goods.

 

Start a new post, get Sam on your side and lets get you a new light bulb.

 

John S.

[Raymond AndersonParticipant @raymondanderson34407]

Hi John,

                I never thought of complaining about the lightbulb but, you have got me thinking now, when you think about it 9 or 10 years is not acceptable for a bulb  if Edison can do it all those years ago surely OSRAM can at least equal that?

                                                                      Best wishes,

                                                                    Raymond. 

[David Clark 13Participant @davidclark13]

Hi There

Edison made many bulbs until he got it right.

I don’t think it is fair to compare a custom built bulb made by a team of technicians with an off the shelf screw in bulb.

 

The purpose made one should last a lifetime or more.

The modern mass produced one is a disposable item.

regards David

 

[TerrydParticipant @terryd72465]

Dear John S,

 

I suppose you are one of those who moan about the nanny state and then moan when every mile of road in the UK is not gritted within the first 10 minutes after it snows and never carries emergency equipment or warm clothing in the car in winter. Expecting the emergency services to be there to aid you within a few minutes if you break down.

 

The ‘warranty’ you hold so high in estimation is a manufacturers warranty and has little legal  force.  It is completely arbitrary and is a marketing aid.  the legal points is that a product sholud be fit for purpose.  Whether you sneer or not that is the legal position and the actual life of a product depends on it’s purpose not some arbitrary one that a marketing manager decides. 

 

Britain led the way in this protection (under a Tory government), the European Union has followed this lead but their protection is not quite as good.  This legislation is one of the reasons that Motor manufacturers are increasing their warrant periods.  They realise it is now more difficult to wriggle out of their commitments so have nothing to lose and everything to gain in reputation by fulfilling their legal requirements.

 

You sneer, as all cynics find so easy to do, so I don’t expect you to ever complain about faulty or useless (i.e. not fit for purpose) goods.

 

Terry

 

P.S. the six year period is the limitation in which you can pursue a claim as long as you have informed the supplier when the problem originally arose,  nothing to do with how long something should last.  I realise it is a complex law and a bit difficult to really understand But fortunately one of my neighbours is a barrister and was Parliamentary Under Secretary in the last government overseeing the setting up of the new Supreme Court system and he was able to explain the law to me.  Unfortunately most retailers appear not know or understand, or of course choose to ignore and even deny the law as it stands.

 

 

[Tony JeffreeParticipant @tonyjeffree56510]

Posted by Terryd on 27/11/2010 10:27:58:

Dear John S,

 

I suppose you are one of those who moan about the nanny state and then moan when every mile of road in the UK is not gritted within the first 10 minutes after it snows and never carries emergency equipment or warm clothing in the car in winter. Expecting the emergency services to be there to aid you within a few minutes if you break down.

 

The ‘warranty’ you hold so high in estimation is a manufacturers warranty and has little legal  force.  It is completely arbitrary and is a marketing aid.  the legal points is that a product sholud be fit for purpose.  Whether you sneer or not that is the legal position and the actual life of a product depends on it’s purpose not some arbitrary one that a marketing manager decides. 

 

Britain led the way in this protection (under a Tory government), the European Union has followed this lead but their protection is not quite as good.  This legislation is one of the reasons that Motor manufacturers are increasing their warrant periods.  They realise it is now more difficult to wriggle out of their commitments so have nothing to lose and everything to gain in reputation by fulfilling their legal requirements.

 

You sneer, as all cynics find so easy to do, so I don’t expect you to ever complain about faulty or useless (i.e. not fit for purpose) goods.

Hi Terry –

 

You obviously don’t know John S; if you did, you wouldn’t attribute such preposterous suppositions to him. I suggest you withdraw those comments and apologise to him before he gives you both barrels.

 

From my reading of his post, he wasn’t sneering at anything; he was simply pointing out the reality, which is that regardless of the words in the sale of goods act, the test of what is or is not “fit for purpose” is made in the courts, not in the barrack room by a bunch of armchair lawyers, or by a hue-and-cry in an engineering forum. That being the case, it is, in my not-so humble opinion, a brave man that chooses to test it in court, given that the downside is that you lose the case and end up paying yours and the plaintiff’s costs, which could be not inconsiderable, even if your next-door neighbour happens to be a barrister. So, for most purposes, waving the sale of goods act under a vendor’s nose and threatening legal action is just so much pi$$ and wind. (In Ketan’s case this almost certainly isn’t the reason he has never been sued – that is down to the fact that he deals honestly with his customers.)

 

Now to get on one of my own favourite soap-boxes, there’s a regrettable move towards USA-style litigious attitudes in the UK – ads on the TV for no-win-no-fee, etc. etc. – which tends to breed an attitude of mind where personal responsibility goes out of the window and suddenly everything bad that happens to you is someone else’s fault. In the case of buying cheap imported tools, the point is that if you pay thruppence for a tool that would normally cost 5 bob, and then cry foul when it doesn’t perform like the 5 bob version, you are absolving yourself from the responsibility of deciding what is and is not reasonable. If you buy a Lada and expect it to perform like a Lamborghini, then you are simply failing to apply your brain to the problem, and it isn’t the Lada vendor that is at fault. Incidentally, the Lada is an interesting case in point, because the underlying engineering was sound – it was after all a Fiat design – it was the QC, assembly and attention to detail that meant it was unreliable. However,if you treated your Lada as a kit of parts that just happened to come pre-assembled, and did the equivalent of Arc’s in-house preparation on the car, its reliability (and probably safety too!) increased significantly.

 

Regards,

Tony

Edited By Tony Jeffree on 27/11/2010 11:49:08

[blowlampParticipant @blowlamp]

Would somebody be so kind as to point me towards the text of impending legal action, by the owner of this lathe, as I seem to have missed all the fun?

 

Martin.

[Tony JeffreeParticipant @tonyjeffree56510]

Posted by blowlamp on 27/11/2010 12:04:46:

Would somebody be so kind as to point me towards the text of impending legal action, by the owner of this lathe, as I seem to have missed all the fun?

 

Martin.

 

 Hi Martin –

 

 As far as I can tell, there isn’t any impending legal action, so no fun for you I’m afraid. Just a bunch of armchair lawyers being pompous at each other

 

Regards,

Tony

[Tony JeffreeParticipant @tonyjeffree56510]

Posted by David Clark 1 on 27/11/2010 08:56:05:

Hi There

Edison made many bulbs until he got it right.

I don’t think it is fair to compare a custom built bulb made by a team of technicians with an off the shelf screw in bulb.

 

The purpose made one should last a lifetime or more.

The modern mass produced one is a disposable item.

regards David

 

 Hi David –

 

I believe the lifetime of a lightbulb has more to do with the need of the manufacturer to sell more lightbulbs than it has to do with what is possible in mass production. If you mass produced lightbulbs that lasted a lifetime, the market would rapidly saturate & suddenly your factory would be out of business. You may remember the Rolls Razor – a safety razor that lasted a lifetime – it  didn’t survive in the face of competition from Gillette’s disposable blades.

 

Regards,

Tony

Edited By Tony Jeffree on 27/11/2010 12:47:44

[Steve GarnettParticipant @stevegarnett62550]

Posted by Tony Jeffree on 27/11/2010 12:43:49:

 

I believe the lifetime of a lightbulb has more to do with the need of the manufacturer to sell more lightbulbs than it has to do with what is possible in mass production. If you mass produced lightbulbs that lasted a lifetime, the market would rapidly saturate & suddenly your factory would be out of business. You may remember the Rolls Razor – a safety razor that lasted a lifetime – it  didn’t survive in the face of competition from Gillette’s disposable blades.

 

A few pages back I made exactly the same observation about the Chinese lathe situation. Which probably goes to show that this thread has now got too long for people to comfortably read through if they come to it a little later than the early contributors…

[Axel BentellParticipant @axelbentell]

If some one is paid one dollar per hour, dont hold him too accountable for bad work.

[KWILParticipant @kwil]

Depends upon what that dollar is worth locally in a physical sence, what we may see as cheap may well be a fortune to others.

[TerrydParticipant @terryd72465]

Hi Tony,

 

not ‘Armchair Lawyers’ just people who understand their consumer rights instead of the sheep who follow the flock when told to by suppliers and manufacturers. 

 

Best regards

 

Terry

[Raymond AndersonParticipant @raymondanderson34407]

Hi All,

             as a Ps to my earlier post on this thread, the only modification that I did to the GH750 was about a year after purchase I did away with the single phase motor and installed a 3Hp 3 phase Siemens motor driven by a Eurotherm 650 drive.

                                                             Regards,

                                                   Raymond. 

[Tony JeffreeParticipant @tonyjeffree56510]

 Hi Terry –

 

…whatever. 

 

However, as I pointed out, there is a world of difference between understanding your rights and being able to exert those rights in an effective way.

 

Refards,

Tony

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Tony,

 

You are wasting your breath here. I have already been through all the stuff you have said.

 

You are better off doing something productive.

 

Ketan at ARC.

[Tony JeffreeParticipant @tonyjeffree56510]

Posted by Ketan Swali on 27/11/2010 16:50:28:

Tony,

 

You are wasting your breath here. I have already been through all the stuff you have said.

 

You are better off doing something productive.

 

Ketan at ARC.

 Ketan –

 

You are right of course

Regards,

Tony

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Tony,

 

If I am right, that means you are buying the rounds at the bar…especially considering that I have to save the pennies for an impending court case

 

Terry,

 

I am still joking. Lifes too short for this kind of carry on….especially considering that John S, Tony, I and some others do not really need to be fighting WARCOs battles.

 

Come to think of it, we now even have a belated confirmation from the original contributor that it wasnt really about a battle in the first place!

 

What a bunch of  wonderful  people we all are!

 

Ketan at ARC

 

[blowlampParticipant @blowlamp]

Quote

“… Lifes too short for this kind of carry on….especially considering that John S, Tony, I and some others do not really need to be fighting WARCOs battles…

 

…Come to think of it, we now even have a belated confirmation from the original contributor that it wasnt really about a battle in the first place!…”

End of Quote

 

Then, there was a blinding flash – a puff of smoke…

…and the lights came on!!

 

Oooh-eer! I’ve gone all light headed! – This is how Pam Ewing must have felt when she woke from the worlds longest nightmare, to find Bobby safe and well and taking a shower.

 

Martin.

[Author]

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