Confused by a magnet

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Confused by a magnet

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  • #625303
    Michael Gilligan
    Participant
      @michaelgilligan61133

      Browsing ebay last night, I spotted that Zoro is listing Eclipse Magnetics E1001/NEO at what appears reasonable price … but I’m confused by the product itself.

      Farnell has the Eclipse data-sheet available: **LINK**

      https://www.farnell.com/datasheets/2290329.pdf

      … but I’m still confused.

      Does the Zinc plated casing provide any useful functionality, or is it just a cheap way of making a small magnet look bigger ?

      MichaelG.

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      #28962
      Michael Gilligan
      Participant
        @michaelgilligan61133
        #625305
        John Haine
        Participant
          @johnhaine32865

          Virtue out of necessity I think. Usually they are plated with nickel, then copper then nickel I think as otherwise the material corrodes very quickly. Zinc is probably cheaper?

          #625306
          Michael Gilligan
          Participant
            @michaelgilligan61133

            Thanks, John … but it appears to be a casing rather than just a plating-job

            MichaelG.

            #625307
            DiogenesII
            Participant
              @diogenesii

              Perhaps a countersunk fixing could cause an unconstrained magnet to split if carelessly fixed.. ..is the housing to provide support..? 'containment'

              Edited By DiogenesII on 18/12/2022 08:24:11

              #625308
              David Davies 8
              Participant
                @daviddavies8

                Hi Michael,

                I believe the”can” is there to complete the magnetic circuit. Once the “target” touches the face of the magnet a path exists for the magnetic flux to complete its circuit. For this to be so the “target” needs to be of sufficient diameter and aligned correctly to cover the can and magnet.

                HTH

                Dave

                #625309
                Kiwi Bloke
                Participant
                  @kiwibloke62605

                  Neodymium is too brittle, fragile and chemically 'active' to be used 'naked'. Hence the magnets are encased for mechanical and chemical protection, and the Zn plate is presumably to protect the case material against corrosion. It looks like the case also acts as a 'pot' magnet's peripheral pole piece, as suggested in the post above.

                  Edited By Kiwi Bloke on 18/12/2022 08:54:03

                  #625310
                  Michael Gilligan
                  Participant
                    @michaelgilligan61133

                    Thanks, folks yes

                    That seems to make sense … now I’m just surprised to see how many ‘naked’ ones are around.

                    I suppose if anyone is going to do things right, it should be Eclipse

                    MichaelG.

                    .

                    Edit: __ I’ve just ordered three, at Zoro’s attractive price.

                    Edited By Michael Gilligan on 18/12/2022 09:14:41

                    #625314
                    John Haine
                    Participant
                      @johnhaine32865

                      I think that neodymium nudity is very rare – every one I've ever seen is nickel plated at least. Once I managed to chip the coating off and the magnet quickly corroded.

                      **LINK** shows a pot magnet that definitely has a surrounding case – however you can clearly see the gap between the "pot" and the centre pole needed to make sure the flux isn't shorted. There is only a very thin line between the outside "pot" and the magnet face in the Eclipse photo though – but I notice that if you look at the screw hole it does look as if there's a plate at the bottom. You must tell us what you find Michael!

                      #625315
                      Hopper
                      Participant
                        @hopper

                        From the dreaded Wiki:

                        Sintered Nd2Fe14B [Neodymium] tends to be vulnerable to corrosion, especially along grain boundaries of a sintered magnet. This type of corrosion can cause serious deterioration, including crumbling of a magnet into a powder of small magnetic particles, or spalling of a surface layer.

                        This vulnerability is addressed in many commercial products by adding a protective coating to prevent exposure to the atmosphere. Nickel, nickel-copper-nickel and zinc platings are the standard methods, although plating with other metals, or polymer and lacquer protective coatings, are also in use.[21]

                        And

                        Magnets that get too near each other can strike each other with enough force to chip and shatter the brittle magnets, and the flying chips can cause various injuries, especially eye injuries.

                        So apart from corrosion and crumbling resistance, I guess if the posted countersunk variety were used naked in a contact situation, such as a cupboard door closer etc, the impact could shatter it without the zinc-plated envelope to hold it together.

                        #625316
                        Jon Lawes
                        Participant
                          @jonlawes51698

                          Those Neodym magnets can really shatter into quite sharp shards.

                          #625320
                          Ady1
                          Participant
                            @ady1

                            I've used the ebay 10mm ones over the years and they are extremely fragile

                            If you look at them the wrong way they break in half, but they still work fine

                            Edited By Ady1 on 18/12/2022 10:59:38

                            #625323
                            Tim Stevens
                            Participant
                              @timstevens64731

                              I agree with Ady 1 that Neo magnets from a well known web source are both fragile and rust prone once they are cracked. And some of them arrive like that – but they still work for attaching important (but temporary) papers to a tool box lid or the top of a mill column.

                              I suspect that as the Neo mix is chosen solely for its magnetic properties, it is not easy to form into shape by old-style methods. My guess is that sintering is used, and a quick flash of zinc is a good way to stop the rust while not affecting the dimensions significantly.

                              I await news from Michael G about what his magnets comprise when they arrive. If they arrive.

                              Cheers, Tim

                              #625324
                              peak4
                              Participant
                                @peak4

                                Re Corrosion, see P92 of the eclipse Magnets & Magnetic Tools catalogue available for download from HERE
                                https://www.eclipsemagnetics.com/resources/?filter_related_product_type=2403&filter_resource_type=2398#resources

                                A very useful source of larger flat magnets, attached to a backing plate is redundant computer hard disk drives; there's two in each single platter drive.

                                Bill

                                Edited By peak4 on 18/12/2022 11:23:34

                                #625329
                                Michael Gilligan
                                Participant
                                  @michaelgilligan61133
                                  Posted by John Haine on 18/12/2022 10:11:35:

                                  I think that neodymium nudity is very rare – every one I've ever seen is nickel plated at least. […]

                                  […]

                                  You must tell us what you find Michael!

                                  .

                                  Sorry, John … cross-purposes … l was thinking more in terms of wearing [or not wearing] a jacket, rather than ‘body-painting’ blush

                                  Yes, I will happily report on my purchase.

                                  MichaelG.

                                  Edited By Michael Gilligan on 18/12/2022 11:35:50

                                  #625332
                                  Robert Atkinson 2
                                  Participant
                                    @robertatkinson2

                                    David Davies 8 is correct, the casing or "pot" is there to complete the magnetic circuit and increase the force. They are often called Pot magnets and existed before rare earth magnets.
                                    The pot also protects a brittle magnet from direct impacts as a secondary benefit. Both magnet and pot are plated to prevent corrosion.

                                    https://www.stanfordmagnets.com/what-are-the-types-of-pot-magnets.html

                                    Robert G8RPI.

                                    #625335
                                    Andrew Tinsley
                                    Participant
                                      @andrewtinsley63637

                                      I looked up the magnets on the Zoro website. It describes the plating system and the reason why they are plated. Namely to protect against corrosion.

                                      Andrew.

                                      #625338
                                      Michael Gilligan
                                      Participant
                                        @michaelgilligan61133
                                        Posted by Andrew Tinsley on 18/12/2022 12:42:50:

                                        I looked up the magnets on the Zoro website. It describes the plating system and the reason why they are plated. Namely to protect against corrosion.

                                        Andrew.

                                        .

                                        So did I, Andrew … my question was why there was a can around something which is commonly supplied ‘naked’ but plated.

                                        MichaelG.

                                        #625349
                                        peak4
                                        Participant
                                          @peak4
                                          Posted by Michael Gilligan on 18/12/2022 14:53:11:

                                          Posted by Andrew Tinsley on 18/12/2022 12:42:50:

                                          I looked up the magnets on the Zoro website. It describes the plating system and the reason why they are plated. Namely to protect against corrosion.

                                          Andrew.

                                          .

                                          So did I, Andrew … my question was why there was a can around something which is commonly supplied ‘naked’ but plated.

                                          MichaelG.

                                          See P93 of the catalogue I linked to in an earlier post, as well as Robert's link.

                                          Bill

                                          #625354
                                          Michael Gilligan
                                          Participant
                                            @michaelgilligan61133

                                            Thanks, Bill

                                            Sorry … I didn’t intend to revive the discussion by replying to Andrew blush

                                            Having already looked at P93 and the other references, I was happy that my question had been answered.

                                            When they arrive [at £1.75 each, post free] I will take a photo to better illustrate the construction.

                                            MichaelG.

                                            #625355
                                            Anonymous

                                              Lee Valley have been selling similar arrangements for years and have a somewhat explanation here.

                                               

                                              (LV used to have such a nice, simple website with quite a lot of general background info pages – now it seems to have gone over to "Modern Busy" and if the background is still there, I don't have time to find it.)

                                              Edited By Peter Greene 🇨🇦 on 18/12/2022 19:34:27

                                              #625360
                                              Michael Gilligan
                                              Participant
                                                @michaelgilligan61133
                                                Posted by Peter Greene 🇨🇦 on 18/12/2022 19:28:54:

                                                Lee Valley have been selling similar arrangements for years and have a somewhat explanation here.

                                                […]

                                                .

                                                Interesting to see the component parts shown separately, Peter yes

                                                Unless my eyes are deceiving me, that’s a somewhat different configuration to the Eclipse offering.

                                                .

                                                34d5200e-53dc-486b-9ddf-82c06e95d642.jpeg

                                                .

                                                We shall see … hopefully soon, but who knows ?

                                                MichaelG.

                                                Edited By Michael Gilligan on 18/12/2022 20:52:19

                                                #625369
                                                Anonymous

                                                  Yes … it seems the Eclipse one has a countersunk magnet. Don't really know why that's necessary and it makes the magnet a bit "special".

                                                  #625386
                                                  Robert Atkinson 2
                                                  Participant
                                                    @robertatkinson2

                                                    The Lee Valley design uses a standard magnet but has the disadvantage that the mggnet fits over the screw after fixing. This has two disabvantages:

                                                    1. The assenbly is thicker / taller

                                                    2. It is very difficult to remove the maget to get at the screw if it needs tightening or the assembly moving.

                                                    Robert G8RPI.

                                                    #625390
                                                    noel shelley
                                                    Participant
                                                      @noelshelley55608

                                                      As an aside to all of this , when salvaging speaker magnets I PART THE FRONT AND BACK PLATES, grind any rivet heads Etc off, clean up, wrap the centre core in tape to fill the coil gap and reassemble. This keeps magnetic dust Etc from bridging the gap and weakening the field. BUT if the magnet is large BE VERY CAREFUL ! When placing on an iron or steel table that you have NOT got the tips of your fingers in the gap, it WILL hurt ! Great for mounting lamps Etc Noel.

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