What a sad day for the British motorcycle industry.

[thaiguzziParticipant @thaiguzzi]

Posted by JA on 31/01/2020 11:54:26:

Posted by Hopper on 31/01/2020 10:04:23:

The Guardian story does show what a bunch of sharks were running the new Norton show, using the historic name to milk money out of government development programs and pensioners' savings.

Norton has folded more often than a Moulton pedal cycle. The firm's owners since Manganese Bronze, the last 40 years, have generally been dodgy to say the least. The one who owned the company when it was at Shenstone, when it built and raced rotaries, was done for fraud.

All the old British motorcycle company names have a high value and most, A.J.S., Enfield and Triumph excepted since they are in the motorcycle business, attract fraudsters, hucksters and chancers.

The British motorcycle industry in its glory days was something of an illusion. The investment was low, for a few years the shareholders did well and the directors, generally, were rubbish. In the 1950s Lord Docker ran BSA which made BSA, Triumph, Ariel and Sunbeam motorcycles – enough said.

And I own 4 British bikes.

JA

Er, AJS is Chinese and makes 125 and 230cc albeit pretty, small retro style motorcycles for the learner market.

Somebody mentioned Brough made in France, well yes, but it is a top dollar, or should that be top Euro motorcycle, modern, unique, and plenty of styling cues to it's forefathers with some fantastic engineering, starting prices at 49k GBP, and a waiting list for the latest ones.

[JAParticipant @ja]

Posted by thaiguzzi on 01/02/2020 08:15:33:

Posted by JA on 31/01/2020 11:54:26:

Posted by Hopper on 31/01/2020 10:04:23:

The Guardian story does show what a bunch of sharks were running the new Norton show, using the historic name to milk money out of government development programs and pensioners' savings.

Norton has folded more often than a Moulton pedal cycle. The firm's owners since Manganese Bronze, the last 40 years, have generally been dodgy to say the least. The one who owned the company when it was at Shenstone, when it built and raced rotaries, was done for fraud.

All the old British motorcycle company names have a high value and most, A.J.S., Enfield and Triumph excepted since they are in the motorcycle business, attract fraudsters, hucksters and chancers.

The British motorcycle industry in its glory days was something of an illusion. The investment was low, for a few years the shareholders did well and the directors, generally, were rubbish. In the 1950s Lord Docker ran BSA which made BSA, Triumph, Ariel and Sunbeam motorcycles – enough said.

And I own 4 British bikes.

JA

Er, AJS is Chinese and makes 125 and 230cc albeit pretty, small retro style motorcycles for the learner market.

 

A.J.S. – true, they are quite pretty. The bikes are designed in this country and the company has had the same owners since the 1970s – Fluff Brown and then his son, Nick. Nick contracts out the production to one of the leading Chinese manufacturers. He keeps control of the rights, sales etc.

JA

Edited By JA on 01/02/2020 09:10:52

[thaiguzziParticipant @thaiguzzi]

AJS, Mash, Sinnis, Tiger, GPX, and at least a dozen others, all badge engineered made in China.

Some specify their own components, some fit higher end components like chains, shocks and tyres their end once received from the containers on the docks.

Not knocking them, just saying.

[Mike PooleParticipant @mikepoole82104]

I rather expect we will see Norton rise again, the name is probably the only asset of the crashed company so it will be sold on to the next dreamer. Perhaps John Bloor would fancy adding Norton to his successful business. At least he would be realistic about how to make a commercial success of it.

Mike

[Ex contributorParticipant @mgnbuk]

He keeps control of the rights, sales etc.

In the UK only ? the AJS brand and logo in Germany is is used on retro styled motorcycle apparel by the Louis group.

IIRC the rights to the Norton name and logo for German use were owned by someone else.

I'm sorry for those who have lost their livelyhood by this collapse, but I had thought for some time that the current Norton "brand" was following in the path of the original – too much emphasis on racing without having a decent product base and sales to support it. The last owner seemed big on talk, but not so much so on action.

I have one of the new Royal Enfield Interceptor 650 twins – a terrific bike & an absolute bargain. The new smalller capacity Norton twins shown last year (with Chinese built engines) were going to be costing arlmost twice as much as the RE & didn't (to me) look anything like as well designed. Apparently RE sold around 1200 of their new twins in the UK last , despite supply difficulties. How many would Norton have managed with theirs ?

Nigel B

Edited By mgnbuk on 01/02/2020 10:48:14

[CirclipParticipant @circlip]

Perhaps, in safe hands, part of the money about to be wasted on HS2 could be better spent?

Regards Ian.

[Phil H1Participant @philh196021]

I am not so much into motorbikes but I am surprised there is no market for a British built bike. I think it might need to be a specialist design – not just something that has already failed – similar to some of the top end sports cars that are still produced here.

[Brian OldfordParticipant @brianoldford70365]

Posted by Circlip on 01/02/2020 12:57:53:

Perhaps, in safe hands, part of the money about to be wasted on HS2 could be better spent?

Regards Ian.

Not wasted if you understand it. Production of a handful of motorcycles will benefit a handful of people. HS2, if completed, will benefit much of the population, even to those parts of the country as far flung from the network such as Aberystwyth.

[John Paton 1Participant @johnpaton1]

I wonder if Tata might take on Norton – they seem to have pretty effective with Jag so can do things other than far eastern lorries and seem to be able to get the best out of UK engineers and designers. The brand has similar appeal.

If the engine's the bit that lets down Norton how about a Jag (electric) engined one, batteries low down to keep C of G where it should be?

[Mike PooleParticipant @mikepoole82104]

Posted by Phil H1 on 01/02/2020 18:05:35:

I am not so much into motorbikes but I am surprised there is no market for a British built bike. I think it might need to be a specialist design – not just something that has already failed – similar to some of the top end sports cars that are still produced here.

John Bloor has had much success building Triumphs since the early 90’s, some models are now built abroad. Ariel build the Ace with a Honda engine, if you fancy being Steve McQueen then Metisse will make you a replica. Other bikes are available.

Mike

[David GWParticipant @davidgw13951]

Posted by Geoff Theasby on 31/01/2020 11:07:13:

Well! A host of posts about bikes and even one Clarence Clutterbuck, but nary a mention of Ogri! (And Malcolm)

**LINK**

I have an Ogri tattoo

[SteviegtrParticipant @steviegtr]

Anyone remember this bike that Norton made. 1.5 litre V8 235bhp. Never made more than 90hp, overheated & was shelved. Saw it at the motor show many years ago.

Steve.

[Ian Johnson 1Participant @ianjohnson1]

I must have been to the same bike show as you Steve, it was 20 years ago!

I got talking to Alwyn Melling of Melling Consultancy Design (MCD) based in Rochdale UK, and got hold of his press pack including quite a damning High Court Judgement regarding the conduct of the then Norton owners. The CEO Robert Kilpatrick was arrested on charges of fraud. Norton has a chequered history!

Here is a copy of the V8 Norton MCD 'Nemesis' spec with a claimed 235BHP!

Aside from the Nemesis they had the Norton 'Nirvana' a 1538cc V twin and a Norton 750cc 4 cylinder. There was also a F1 V10 in the pipeline. Interesting company, don't know what they are doing now though!

Ian

[Mike PooleParticipant @mikepoole82104]

Did anyone ever get to ride one? Or did anyone buy one? It’s a long road from a concept prototype to volume production. In the real world it takes 2-3 years to bring a car to full volume production even when you have a billion to spend on the project.

Mike

[Ian Johnson 1Participant @ianjohnson1]

I vaguely remember the prototype being of a very poor quality build, nothing seemed finished, and nothing seemed to fit properly either, and those wheel spindles must have had huge bearings, all a bit weird! And the fairing did not look like carbon fibre at all. So I can only assume a production bike was never made.

Ian

[SteviegtrParticipant @steviegtr]

Yes the bike was at the motor show & 20 years ago, my god where did the last 20 yrs go. It seemed like a few years ago to me. The bike was up against a left hand wall with a chain or some sort of ribbon so you could not get near it. I looked very hard & could not see the engine. But i did read a road test & cannot remember which mag it was in. They said it made a mere 90 BHP & was overheating badly so they stopped the test.

Steve.

[SteviegtrParticipant @steviegtr]

I was on the Ducati owners forum tonight. Many had bikes from Norton on order. Seems like someone has been going in & stripping the bikes. Not sure yet what it's all about. Would not surprise me if it wasn't the auditors themselves. My friends dad had an Electrical wholesalers & went bust. By the time the auditors had done the shop was nearly bare. All going in on a morning with large haversack's & coming out in the evening limping. Sods.

Steve.

[NorboyParticipant @norboy]

If you have a Twitter account go and read NotNorton Motorcyles. Prospective owners etc and past employees commenting. Allegedly a lot of very dodgy, potentially criminal practices going on before the final collapse.

[SteviegtrParticipant @steviegtr]

I am not on twitter but can guess the comments. Do you think that director guy with the big house has some security staff now. I would not like to be him sat in Mc donalds on a sat afternoon & bumping into some poor sod that has lost 40 grand.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Steviegtr on 11/02/2020 19:25:14:

… Seems like someone has been going in & stripping the bikes. Not sure yet what it's all about. Would not surprise me if it wasn't the auditors themselves. My friends dad had an Electrical wholesalers & went bust. By the time the auditors had done the shop was nearly bare. All going in on a morning with large haversack's & coming out in the evening limping. Sods.

Steve.

Pedant alert: auditors unlikely, they look at the accounts?

The Receiver is more likely – they do strip assets, often rating a quick cash return above taking a few months to achieve full value. When a receiver takes over, the failed owner is last in the list of creditors. The receiver is entirely responsible to those owned money, with top priority given to HRMC.

The process is most brutal to small, honest, family businesses. It is least effective on the type of business man who takes care to ensure he isn't personally liable for anything, and who can legally transfer assets out of the business in the run up to the crash. Much of what these chaps do is immoral, and some downright fraud. In addition, during a collapse, anyone with access to the assets is easily tempted – once the security and accounting systems have shut down anything portable disappears. I'm afraid most people are a bit dishonest.

Dave

 

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 12/02/2020 11:47:53

[David James JennerParticipant @davidjamesjenner99025]

It is indeed sad to see once more the demise of Norton. I've often thought that the looks and overall design of the Norton Commando was a classic. Several months ago I was looking at a YouTube video of a chap in the USA who had engineered out many of the Commandos short comings. resulting in a smooth running (for a vertical twin!) reliable motorcycle.It occurs to me that Enfield India would be ideally placed to produce a modernised Commando.

With today's CNC precision engineering processes and the large amount of information regarding all its engineering shortfalls, producing a good motorcycle in the classic style would to my mind be a winner.

Dave

[Ex contributorParticipant @mgnbuk]

.It occurs to me that Enfield India would be ideally placed to produce a modernised Commando.

With today's CNC precision engineering processes and the large amount of information regarding all its engineering shortfalls, producing a good motorcycle in the classic style would to my mind be a winner.

RE introduced their own newly engineered 650 twins last year (Interceptor & Continetal GT), which have been very well received. Talking to a Triumph dealer principal over the weekend he volunteered that RE had sold around 1400 in the UK last year, placing it as the third highest selling model over 600 cc (behind two BMW models). Why would RE want to introduce a competitor to their own successful range ?

Nigel B.

[peak4Participant @peak4]

Posted by Steviegtr on 11/02/2020 19:25:14:

…………….. Seems like someone has been going in & stripping the bikes. Not sure yet what it's all about. Would not surprise me if it wasn't the auditors themselves. ………………………………………..

Steve.

I should say that's I've no inside knowledge and can't substantially corroborate any of the following.

It would appear that one (or more ) customer bike(s) have been returned for warranty work; at least one of them at zero miles.
It is alleged that these have been stripped of parts to complete other bike(s) on the production line to release the final payment from the prospective new customers.
It looks like some of the firms employees are trying to work with the accountants to make sense of what's been happening and to return at least some bikes to their rightful owners.
All a but hard to tell from unauthorised twitter accounts, but certainly suggestions of serious illegality.
My heart goes out to all who have been taken for a ride here, and that includes Norton employees.
Bill

Edited By peak4 on 12/02/2020 14:24:56

[John MCParticipant @johnmc39344]

It is a sad but inevitable that Norton should be finishing again. I think it was the most successful (long lasting?) attempt at resurrecting the name.

I say inevitable because what did the bikes have to offer at the selling price? Plenty of other bikes as good as and often better are available at considerably less cost.

No doubt the Administrators will sell the Norton name. Who will buy it? Seems to me that the name has become tainted by repeated and unsuccessful attempts to resurrect the brand.

I can see the new Brough Superior going the same way, if it does I hope its in an honest way.

Best wishes for the future to employees and customers who have been affected by this sad business.

John

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Posted by mgnbuk on 12/02/2020 12:53:14:

.It occurs to me that Enfield India would be ideally placed to produce a modernised Commando.

With today's CNC precision engineering processes and the large amount of information regarding all its engineering shortfalls, producing a good motorcycle in the classic style would to my mind be a winner.

RE introduced their own newly engineered 650 twins last year (Interceptor & Continetal GT), which have been very well received. Talking to a Triumph dealer principal over the weekend he volunteered that RE had sold around 1400 in the UK last year, placing it as the third highest selling model over 600 cc (behind two BMW models). Why would RE want to introduce a competitor to their own successful range ?

Nigel B.

I rode a mate's new 650 Enfield while in the USA last year and it was quite nice, Very smooth (balance shaft) and very light in the handling. Great little bomb-around-town bike. But the Triumph twins are way better in performance and handling out on the open road. But big difference in price too I think. The Enfields were on sale over there cheap cheap.

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