Vertex

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Are got you now, a flush circular table within teh main table.

But are we going backwards, CNC allows us to cut circles, arcs, divide etc no matter what the table. Is it just the model engineer that is going backwards by trying to base their machines on out of date manual ones?

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Manny lambert on 27/09/2015 13:44:02:

I could easily design a milling machine using current data that would out perform any far eastern one and I expect their are many model engineers out there that could do a far better job than me.

Go on then.

If you can draw it up as general arrangements and write it up for no more than a six page article, I'll publish in in MEW.

Only condition – it must be practical and economical to manufacture – anyone could make a design based around a complex CNC machined casting the size of a house and then say 'I told you it's solid as a rock'.

But be warned, folks will be queuing up to spot it's weak points.

[Manny lambertParticipant @mannylambert86533]

Hi Neil, thanks for the challenge.

Perhaps if there was enough interest you could run a design competition for all model engineers, I also think this should include the full costings and retail price of such a machine.

I would certainly enter, as I like challenges and new ideas.

I am a retired senior consultant in a completely different field ( expertise is in designing Biological filtration systems,pipework,etc)

I am new to metal workshops, the last time I did metal work was at school, I dont get much practise in the workshop as I am unwell but all my waking hours are dedicated to studying all aspects of machine tool design, I am not however interested in CNC or robots.

Example of my way of thinking; Tapered gibs and current method of locking knees, cross slide and tables. I maybe me wrong but the locking pressure is only applied at small area surely it would be better if we could apply pressure for the whole length of the gib tapered or not as a means to locking. I believe this would go along way to provide extra rigidity to any machine??

Less CNC and robots = more engineers/craftsman

I am old fashioned I suppose but its how I see things.

manny

[KWILParticipant @kwil]

I would hate to think how thick the table would have to be to inset a practical rotary table into the sutace and still have sufficient strength to keep the table flat when hanging out to the full extent of horizontal travel!

There again why would one need a built in rotary table? It is not a thing that would be in continual use is it?

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi, I don't think I would want an integral rotary table in my mill table, apart from the extra cost of making such a machine, I think it would be more of a hindrance than a help, and as Kwil says, you would not need it continuously. If you did need one for continual work, you may be better off having a dedicated machine with a round, or even a square table with the xyz contributes.

Regards Nick.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Manny,

It's a lot to say you can 'easily' come up with a better design than the collective efforts of designers across a pretty huge industry over many years.

One day I may well set up such a competition, though I don't see how people could cost their machines. But you seem confident you can do this and you obviously have some idea, so have go.

On your example – taper gibs are much more expensive to make (for a start you have to machine two dovetails at an exact angle to each other, much harder than a parallel pair). But how do you put a price on it? One thing for sure, hobby-priced machines are unlikely to stand the extra cost.

Locking needs very little pressure if gibs are adjusted correctly, add more than one lock, price goes up, but is there a measurable difference in performance?

Perhaps other folks could make a start by suggesting some improvements that could be made without significant extra costs i.e. change shapes or arrangements or add metal, but no additional machining set-ups or jigs, no new testing required, and any parts to be no more complex or numerous than existing ones.

Neil

[Manny lambertParticipant @mannylambert86533]

Hi Neil

I didnt mean to come across that way, but it seems that there are a lot of new machines that simply do not have most of the desirable features I would want in a milling machine and the quality and attention to important details seems lacking.

I must admit accurate costing would difficult as the market today is smaller than in the past especially in Europe.

I am no expert on this subject but I do own a quality lathe and a not so good milling machine and lots of other tools.

I use to own a Holbrook model 8B (1938), I have not seen another small lathe built to this quality today.

So are we going backwards ? I would have expected all machines today to match the quality of Holbrooks or be better still.

Thanks for all the advice, I also meant a team effort by more experienced model engineers.

I have enjoyed this chat and I have learnt a few things.

Manny

[JonParticipant @jon]

Posted by Manny lambert on 27/09/2015 18:39:44:I use to own a Holbrook model 8B (1938), I have not seen another small lathe built to this quality today.

So are we going backwards ? I would have expected all machines today to match the quality of Holbrooks or be better still. Manny

Most of the manual machinery is for the diy market. As the US would put it the average diy/home user wouldn't tolerate any price hikes going for price over quality every time.
I would argue the point since theres no or very few real craftsmen able to undertake the requisites in producing such quality machines. In fact you can stretch that to just about anything produced today unless you pay for it to be done by a spotty faced pc guru with no engineering knowledge and it wouldn't be £50 extra by real people with know how, cnc would add 12 fold that cost on limited parts.

I would go a stage further, its one thing designing a product by modern days means and labour, its a wildly different kettle of fish designed and made by real craftsmen with know how in to its use and how its to be used.

First thing that come in to my head and noticed elsewhere above, building rotary table in to a small diy mill would add 4"+ to the bed thickness. Add that extra weight and cost you would also have to beef up the rest of the machine like as if it were made when quality mattered.

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

Jon makes a good point about final thickness when rigidity matters. It relates to weight as well.

Manufacturing costs are complicated. The company I worked for generally had tooling made in the USA (by the USA wing of it* ) It would then be used for production in the far east, generally China. As an experiment they did the tooling design and then had it made in China. The cost saving over having it made in the USA was relatively small, circa 10% or under from memory. This was for producing rather precise pressure die castings that would require a minimal amount of machining. Going on this where precision is needed costs aren't all that different. This is probably down to the cost of the equipment used to make the tooling. Labour costs are a drop in the ocean compare with that. These days development costs are also very high on many items. Often the most significant one of the lot.

Where labour costs are significant is in cases such as the one that started off a lot of use of far eastern manufacture. Electronic items without surface mount and reflow soldering etc. All parts were put in by hand and then hand soldered.

DIY machine prices have similar problems. It can be amazing what huge 5 axis cnc machines can do with hardly anyone going near them. They cost a fortune and that would have to be passed on to the person that buys them so they use separate machines to do the job. These still have to be paid for and the accuracy they have to work to will have a bearing on cost. Not just the machine used but the amount of consumables it uses and how often quality is checked and corrected and to what level. More and more people are needed so labour costs get more significant. The other factor is the final cost. As the cost goes up fewer and fewer people will buy them so costs have to go up even more.

I feel there is another factor as well in the west probably more so in the UK. Business needs money. It's way way simpler for some one to buy in and sell than it is to manufacture and sell so the "smart" money goes into that area as life is so much simpler.

*The UK wing had tooling manufacture locally and went for the lowest of lowest costs. I lost count of the number of times they had to retrieve something quickly because the company they used had gone bust. Another problem with manufacture. No one wants to pay for it so even if the business is good profits are low so that far too many people can buy them in and sell them on often along with pretty dramatic price mark ups so that they can earn a good living. No point bleating about this, it's a fact of life.

John

–

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

> I use to own a Holbrook model 8B (1938), I have not seen another small lathe built to this quality today.

> So are we going backwards ? I would have expected all machines today to match the quality of Holbrooks or be better still.

A very simple reason, the Holbrook is a toolroom lathe. In 1938, just as 2015, most users do not need the accuracy of a toolroom machine. It would be nice to have it, but you have to pay for it

"The leadscrews were corrected against a master thread, itself certified by the National Physical Laboratory as accurate to within plus or minus 0.0001 over any one foot length, at 68 F."

In a sense, you're asking why can't we all have Faberge eggs, in a world where most people can only afford Cadburys.

Neil

[Manny lambertParticipant @mannylambert86533]

Hi John and Jon,

I understand what you are saying regarding costs and demand. I use to design biological filtration systems and built them as well, I was lucky as I controlled the budgets.

Its the end user that matters in the end.

Its a shame that we have lost so many trades over the years and the people with the knowledge.

This thread has taught a lot more than expected. considering it started on the subject of the vertex brand of tooling.

Thanks to every one contributing to my knowledge and understanding on this fascinating subject.

Manny

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Posted by Emgee on 27/09/2015 11:00:33:

Kwil, one design feature I fail to understand is found on on most small 3" & 4" low cost vertical/horizontal rotary tables, it is the positioning of the rotary operating handle at the top corner of the table when used in

Simple reason is that the small low cost rotary tables will tend to be used on small low cost machines, placing the handle at the top keeps the axis of rotation nearer the table as these small mills have limited head height at the best of times so every little helps

[John PParticipant @johnp77052]

Manny,

An interesting subject designing machine tools ,it is a giant leap from
having some ideas in the back of your mind to end up with a finished and
working machine tool .Having been through this experience in the construction
of this universal grinding machine.Started 10 years ago on the back of another
project that i thought was failing ,i wanted something else that i had full
control on the eventual outcome .There is always an objective to obtain in
doing this ,for me this was to have a grinding machine that would fit in the
only space that i had left in the workshop .Since this machine grinds
cylindrically and is also a surface grinder fulfills two functions but stands
in half the footprint of just one equivalent comparable industrial machine.
As such the objective has been achieved.

2 photos in album (vertex) unable to post them in here.

There is little advice that anyone will be able to give on achieving your objective
since only you know what you want,some things to remember that anything you
design you will have to be able to make and have the capacity to make or the
cost will spiral upwards.You have to spend all of the money before you find out
if what you have designed is any good.
The most important thing you will get from any project like this is what you will
learn along the way and the experience from doing it and that is priceless.

Good luck

John

[Mike PooleParticipant @mikepoole82104]

Manually operated machinery has become a niche product as even toolrooms which were the pinnacle of manual skills have gone down the CNC route. Industrial manufacturing has no place for manual machines so the manufacturers of high quality manual equipment have either moved on to CNC or gone out of business. When I worked in toolroom maintenance die sinking copy mills were being converted to CNC to skip the pattern/model shop and template section stages of die production. Planers were giving way to planomills which gave a massive increase in productivity. Manual machinery is enormously satisfying to use but today it is only the hobby engineer who gets a kick out of this. A few factories in China would seem to be able to satisfy the worldwide demand for manually operated machines at a price the hobby engineer can afford. The machinery that we lust after has never been affordable to the hobby engineer unless he had extraordinarily deep pockets, when I first developed a yen for a myford it cost £110 which seemed quite a lot of money at the time, the near £10,000 today still seems a lot of money and this was a machine aimed partly at the hobby engineer. Shaublin, Aciera and such machines never were in reach of the average man as new machines, and the people who have aquired good used machines are very lucky. I think it is unlikely now that much time and effort will be applied to making new concept manual machinery. The day will probably come when the hobby machinist gets a kick out of executing the program he has generated from his 3D cadcam software on his home CNC machine, for some this has already happened and one day Minnie and Tich will be made on your home machining centre.

Mike

Edited By Michael Poole on 27/09/2015 23:44:32

[John McNamaraParticipant @johnmcnamara74883]

That is a really Nice Grinder John Pace. A lot of work went into it. Did you design it in CAD?

I can see the column Appears to be thick wall RHS. I cant quite make out how the slides are configured did you use Profile rail? A few more photos would be appreciated.

The base looks very sturdy is it a weldment?

I admire the workmanship.

Regards
John McNamara

[KWILParticipant @kwil]

John Pace, I am with John Mc, more detail would satisfy many of us I am sure, It is certainly a bit larger than your Quorn!

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

A separate thread would be best for your grinder John, that will keep the real world separate from fiction

Or Neil may cross your palm with silver if you write it up for MEW

Edited By JasonB on 28/09/2015 12:48:02

[John PParticipant @johnp77052]

Thanks John and KWIL for your interest in this machine.To continue
here would take this "vertex" thread off topic .The view that i expressed
was only to highlight the task ahead for someone who would wish
to embark on the construction of a piece of machinery such as this
or similar .My view is if you have an idea to design and make a
particular piece of machinery is go for it, i would be interested in
seeing the results as i am sure many others would too.
As far as this machine is concerned this is the same machine that
was the subject of the thread about 2 years ago " Universal Grinding
machine construction series ?" for which there is a full construction
article and introductory article that have been submitted to ME.
John you are correct about the column ,it is 5 inch square tube about
10 mm wall thickness ,the base is welded on and the slide is bolted on
and the assembly machined as if a casting ,as far as i can remember it
weighed 28 kg.
The whole machine is constructed in a similar way there are no castings
as this provides an easy route for anyone to construct a similar machine.
Two photos ,as the machine progresses it is able to be used to make
more parts of the machine ,here we see the shaft for one of the workheads
being finish ground and in the second the finished shaft and some
component parts of the workheads.
I see a later post from Jason ,maybe best if any further postings

for this machine would continue in the Grinding machine series thread.
Photo's in album.

Regards

John

[KWILParticipant @kwil]

Looked there, I and many others wrote in that thread supporting such a series in ME. BUT it appears to have died. So here as indeed has been raised in the "Universal Grinding Machine" thread,

Is it going to happen?

It could be better than the Stepperhead!

[thaiguzziParticipant @thaiguzzi]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 26/09/2015 12:25:52:

Vertex are in Taiwan, but a lot of their stuff comes out of mainland China, often the same factories as other imported kit. Vertex are good at QC and will work with the good factories, so their stuff may sometimes is better than the run of the mill.

SOBA are the 'big boys' in India, generally good but QC tends to be more hit and miss than in China as there's less of a tendency to stick with the same factory for the same product. Some SOBA stuff is great, some isn't. There are some exceptions in India, notably Zither whose chucks are very good for the price.

The Myford VM mills are from Taiwan and made to a high spec, but yes it seems they aren't perfect. I bet even Tom Senior shipped a lemon now and again

Wash your mouth out with soap and water boy! Tom Senior never ever shipped a lemon.

Maybe a lime, bit never a lemon…

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