Threaded Norman Toolpost

[BWParticipant @bw]

Have been pondering this Norman Toolpost – the block and the post are both threaded to allow for tool height control.

Locked at the top by a lock nut on the post.

But if you are cutting towards headstock, then surely the block could be pushed back towards the headstock as there is nothing underneath it to stop it it could rotate on the thread and it might simply drop away from the lock nut ?

Did anybody apart from the author ever make this one ? How did you stop it unscrewing ?

Gotta be a few different ways of doing it, however was wondering if I had missed something in the text

 

EDIT : Think I got it – relies upon the pinch bolt to squeeze it tight ? Would that be good enough ? That way no lock nut required and  the vernier arrangement is easier to understand.

Bill

 

Edited By BW on 10/08/2019 08:32:16

Edited By BW on 10/08/2019 08:33:41

Edited By BW on 10/08/2019 08:51:03

[BWParticipant @bw]

Threaded Norman Toolpost ME 4297 p 459 – Letters to a Grandson

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Does the hex-headed screw pinch the body enough to lock it ?

… or is it just to improve the fit of thread ?

MichaelG.

.

Edit: I think we can safely assume that you didn't build it,

… so; where does the image come from ?

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 10/08/2019 09:01:07

[BWParticipant @bw]

Hey Michael,

Think we were posting at approx the same time. I think thats it, will read the whole thing again maybe I missed something.

EDIT : Scanned the image from the magazine page. Got a whole heap of magzines and have been trawling through them for interesting things to have a go at.

Bill

 

Edited By BW on 10/08/2019 09:04:04

[Tony Pratt 1Participant @tonypratt1]

Seems very limited, much better to have a QCTP or a 4 way toolpost in my opinion.

Tony

[michael pottsParticipant @michaelpotts88182]

Hello BW.

I have two of these toolposts. I bought one for the Myford Speed 10, and made another to for my Cowells lathe. They are very much better than the standard toolpost, and well worth having in my opinion. They are also a lot cheaper to either buy or make than QCTP s. There was a Myford sized one on ebay a few weeks ago.

The body block will be split so that it grips on the threaded upright when the bolt is tightened. I assume that the upright has a 40 tpi thread about 3/4" diameter. It appears to be a useful design variation.

Regards. Mike.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by BW on 10/08/2019 08:29:20:

.

EDIT : Think I got it – relies upon the pinch bolt to squeeze it tight ? Would that be good enough ? That way no lock nut required and the vernier arrangement is easier to understand.

Bill

.

If the threads are closely toleranced in the first place, and the tool is not doing very heavy work … it should be quite adequate.

MichaelG.

.

P.S. Apologies … I missed the subtitle of your post

I shouldn't have needed to ask

[ChrisBParticipant @chrisb35596]

Posted by Tony Pratt 1 on 10/08/2019 09:07:20:

Seems very limited, much better to have a QCTP or a 4 way toolpost in my opinion.

Tony

Why? I had the impression the Norman tool post was a very rigid tool post with minimal overhang over the cross slide. On the downside the tool holders are considerably larger, but then they are far easier to machine than say an Aloris type holder. Am I missing something?

[Tony Pratt 1Participant @tonypratt1]

Posted by ChrisB on 10/08/2019 12:28:10:

Posted by Tony Pratt 1 on 10/08/2019 09:07:20:

Seems very limited, much better to have a QCTP or a 4 way toolpost in my opinion.

Tony

Why? I had the impression the Norman tool post was a very rigid tool post with minimal overhang over the cross slide. On the downside the tool holders are considerably larger, but then they are far easier to machine than say an Aloris type holder. Am I missing something?

Unless I am mistaken the toolpost only takes one tool or do you replace the whole unit when a different tool is reqd?

Tony

[ChrisBParticipant @chrisb35596]

You can have as many tool holders as you wish just like an Aloris, Dickson etc. The drawback on the Norman, the way I see it is the holders are much larger. The whole block in the top photo is the holder. The central boss of course remains on the cross slide. So if I need to replace a holder I just need to slacker the hex bolt at the aft and the holder slides off the top.

I'm thinking of building one myself, so I'm following this thread to see what's the general opinion.

 

Ps. Not exactly sure the one pictured above can be classified as a qctp if you have to unscrew the holder all the way up to remove it. Kind of defeats the purpose…

Edited By ChrisB on 10/08/2019 13:57:38

Edited By ChrisB on 10/08/2019 14:01:50

[BWParticipant @bw]

Posted by Tony Pratt 1 on 10/08/2019 13:27:20:

Unless I am mistaken the toolpost only takes one tool or do you replace the whole unit when a different tool is reqd?

Tony

I think you could have a few tool blocks and also keep some notes regarding what height to set the tool blocks at if you changed the tool in the slot. I guess you could slowly build up to a set of 10-20 blocks – seems to me that there are a lot of people out there who have lots and lots of "blocks" for their particular type of QCTP.

Bill

[John BaronParticipant @johnbaron31275]

Hi Guys,

I've built two of these for use on my Myford S7LB. One as a replacement for the originally supplied 4 way tool holder and the subsequent replacement expensive QCTP. The second one as a rear tool post replacing a parting off tool post that I made. The idea being that I can just swap tool holders between both back and front at will.

All the tool holders that I've made will take a maximum 1/2" tool and right down to a 4 mm square tool. Also the original Norman Patent tool holder used a split pinch bolt and not a slit with a bolt through the block. A split bolt gives better rigidity and better clamping. A quarter turn on an M6 clamp screw from loose to locked tight is all it takes.

I believe that the slit block was used to make the tool holder easier to make !

If It was good enough for Rolls Royce its good enough for me !

 

Edited By John Baron on 10/08/2019 14:22:10

[ChrisBParticipant @chrisb35596]

Posted by John Baron on 10/08/2019 14:19:13:

If It was good enough for Rolls Royce its good enough for me !

But the Rolls Royce (Norman) tool post is not exactly a QCTP right? If I understand the working of that tool post, it's quick change feature is it can be slid off the top slide easily, but you need a tool post for every other tool you have, right?

[geoff walker 1Participant @geoffwalker1]

I have a Myford / Drummond M type, which uses Norman tool holders

Over the years I have added to the collection and now have 10 tool holders

I think it's a great system easy to swap and change and each one is set so the tool is accurately centered when tightened in place. The only downside is you have no angular indexing, but that's not a problem for me.

Some years ago I bought a second top slide and converted it for a dickson toolpost. I bought the tool post and holders from A & R precision in coventry. They were expensive but really well made. I've used the top slide and dickson set up about 3 or 4 times in all. The whole lot is collecting dust on a shelf. I always use the norman tool holders. I must be one of the few people on here who does not like the dickson set up.

Geoff

[John BaronParticipant @johnbaron31275]

Posted by ChrisB on 10/08/2019 14:52:22:

Posted by John Baron on 10/08/2019 14:19:13:

If It was good enough for Rolls Royce its good enough for me !

But the Rolls Royce (Norman) tool post is not exactly a QCTP right? If I understand the working of that tool post, it's quick change feature is it can be slid off the top slide easily, but you need a tool post for every other tool you have, right?

You have a tool holder for each tool you want to use, just as you would have a tool holder for each tool using a QCTP. The post stays on the top slide, it is not removed. Also the centre hight is adjusted in exactly the same fashion as a QCTP using a screw. In the case of my Norman patent tool holder, a M6 cap screw, 39.3 thou per turn or 1 MM.

[John BaronParticipant @johnbaron31275]

Posted by geoff walker 1 on 10/08/2019 15:53:31:

I have a Myford / Drummond M type, which uses Norman tool holders

Over the years I have added to the collection and now have 10 tool holders

I think it's a great system easy to swap and change and each one is set so the tool is accurately centered when tightened in place. The only downside is you have no angular indexing, but that's not a problem for me.

Some years ago I bought a second top slide and converted it for a dickson toolpost. I bought the tool post and holders from A & R precision in coventry. They were expensive but really well made. I've used the top slide and dickson set up about 3 or 4 times in all. The whole lot is collecting dust on a shelf. I always use the norman tool holders. I must be one of the few people on here who does not like the dickson set up.

Geoff

I Ebayed mine and got about half back of what they cost me. For a hobbyist not a good buy at all.

 

These are pictures of mine.

My rear tool post and tool block with parting blade holder.

Edited to insert pictures.

 

Edited By John Baron on 10/08/2019 16:24:34

Edited By John Baron on 10/08/2019 16:39:38

[ChrisBParticipant @chrisb35596]

How does the clamping work John?

Michael Cox's collet type Norman tool post is also very interesting **LINK**

[John BaronParticipant @johnbaron31275]

Posted by ChrisB on 10/08/2019 16:39:03:

How does the clamping work John?

Michael Cox's collet type Norman tool post is also very interesting **LINK**

Did you bother to actually read my first post ?

[geoff walker 1Participant @geoffwalker1]

Hi John,

Not just me then who dislikes the dickson setup. I guess mine will end up on e ebay in due course.

Seen those pictures before, hadn't noticed there was no split in the holder.

They/it looks well made.

You should make some with an angled tool slot. Very useful gives a little extra reach over the end of the top slide.

Geoff

[ChrisBParticipant @chrisb35596]

Posted by John Baron on 10/08/2019 16:42:04:

Posted by ChrisB on 10/08/2019 16:39:03:

How does the clamping work John?

Michael Cox's collet type Norman tool post is also very interesting **LINK**

Did you bother to actually read my first post ?

Actually I did, and not just once…but looking at your photo and your description I still didn't get how the pinch bolt works without the tool holder being split at one end.

But never mind, don't worry.

[John BaronParticipant @johnbaron31275]

Hi Chris,

Take a look at these pictures !

This picture shows the pin after it has been split into two halves and before one half has been drilled to remove the threads.

This picture shows the above being checked for clearance before drilling out the threads in one half..

Note that the split pin is machined at the same time as the hole is being bored.

 

It did occur to me that you may have thought that the first picture in the original post was mine !  I can assure you that it was not, although I do admit to having looked at that design and discounted it as poor.

I have all my original drawings should you want a copy. My drawings are based on the original Van Norman 1880's patent document and not on the later modified ones using a slit and a pinch bolt to clamp the tool block. It was Norman's original design that was used by Rolls Royce in their experimental workshops.

 

Edited By John Baron on 10/08/2019 20:19:19

[ChrisBParticipant @chrisb35596]

Thanks for taking time to explain John. It's much clearer now how the clapming works. It's my first time seeing this design as all the ones I came across online were of the split holder type. This seems like a better design, I like it.

[EmgeeParticipant @emgee]

An excellent method to provide positive clamping with instant release, I first used it on a Dore Facing and Boring head to retain the tool, it was the method described on the plan.

Used it a couple of years ago to lock a rotating turret type 8 tool toolpost to a stop on my cnc lathe.
Tool turret pictures in my album.

Emgee

[Bob StevensonParticipant @bobstevenson13909]

….Still trying to get my tired old brain around the locking pin mechanism…….what anchors the ends of the thread?….one end is obviously a hex socket normal head, but does the other end have to thread into the block?

 

……….A bit cheeky of me, but could you post a rough cross section please?

 

looking at your photos, left and right, the tail end of thread looks like it threads into a washer larger in diameter than the pin sections…..Is this right?…….what stops that washer from revolving with the thread?

Edited By Bob Stevenson on 10/08/2019 22:53:55

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by John Baron on 10/08/2019 20:17:26:

.

… My drawings are based on the original Van Norman 1880's patent document and not on the later modified ones using a slit and a pinch bolt to clamp the tool block. It was Norman's original design that was used by Rolls Royce in their experimental workshops.

.

John,

I have been searching for that Van Norman patent, and failed

[found several others by him but not that one]

Then I stumbled across a note by you, on another forum:

[quote]

Hi Guys,

I can't find the original references to the "Norman Tool Holder" But the original didn't use a bolt to clamp the holder to the post. That drawing in the PDF is modified to use a clamp bolt.

The original design used a split pinch clamp that actually closed on the post directly. Yes it had a screw through it which pulled the two half's of the clamp together. This also allowed a further modification of a handle to clamp the holder without any tools.

[/quote]

.

So, my question is: Did you find the original references ?

and, if so, could you please share the patent number …

I am familiar with the clamping method: I would just like to have a copy of the relevant patent on file.

Thanks

MichaelG.

[Author]

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