pulleys for x1 mill

[Raymond AndersonParticipant @raymondanderson34407]

I for one don't buy into this "it's designed as a fail safe" crap, I would gladly bet that there have been no engineering calculations done as to the load required to break the gears! In fact ,I doubt very much that ANY of these Chinese home machines have had any structural / load calcs done on them, and I am a very satisfied owner of a Chinese lathe "Warco GH750" and a Chinese Mill "Chester Lux" but until I see proof of said calcs I'll stick with my take.

Regards,

Raymond.

[Peter EParticipant @petere]

A really interesting thread this!

I have got a "problem" with my S1X now also an "L" since I bought the large table.

After running for a while, the mill bit seems to loose power. Then motor runs as usual, but the bit slows down and even stops if I am to enthusiastic. The motor does not like it, but still runs.

To me this feels lika a gear loose on its axle/shaft, but which one? Reading about the overly short key on the motor axle it might be the problem so that the axle actually spins inside the gear. When the whole "gearbox" cools down I get som grip again.

The reason for this may be a few dig ins that accidently stopped the spindle, but at the time did not seem to harm anything – until now of course.

greatful for any tips on what it may be as it is difficult to see through the metal plate while running.

Thanks in advance

/Peter

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Posted by Raymond Anderson on 10/11/2012 17:50:55:

I for one don't buy into this "it's designed as a fail safe" crap, I would gladly bet that there have been no engineering calculations done as to the load required to break the gears! In fact ,I doubt very much that ANY of these Chinese home machines have had any structural / load calcs done on them, and I am a very satisfied owner of a Chinese lathe "Warco GH750" and a Chinese Mill "Chester Lux" but until I see proof of said calcs I'll stick with my take.

Regards,

Raymond.

You can choose to believe what ever you want to Raymond. You are entitled to your opinion just as much as I am. I am just stating the fail safe facts as I see them, based on many years of sales of SX1/L machines, and real feedback from customers when they break gears, which makes me qualified to make the comments which I am. I dont really have to make you buy into anything and the factory certainly does not have to prove anything to you.

Ketan at ARC.

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Posted by Peter E on 10/11/2012 17:52:44:

A really interesting thread this!

I have got a "problem" with my S1X now also an "L" since I bought the large table.

After running for a while, the mill bit seems to loose power. Then motor runs as usual, but the bit slows down and even stops if I am to enthusiastic. The motor does not like it, but still runs.

To me this feels lika a gear loose on its axle/shaft, but which one? Reading about the overly short key on the motor axle it might be the problem so that the axle actually spins inside the gear. When the whole "gearbox" cools down I get som grip again.

The reason for this may be a few dig ins that accidently stopped the spindle, but at the time did not seem to harm anything – until now of course.

greatful for any tips on what it may be as it is difficult to see through the metal plate while running.

Thanks in advance

/Peter

Peter,

Download the dismantling and reassemly guide for the SX1L from ARCs website. Dismantle the head and check the gears. Simple

[Sub MandrelParticipant @submandrel]

Hi folks,

Just for clarity, my mill isan X2 – one of the first batch from ARC, I think.

As well as making a belt modification, I fitted angular contact ball bearings as a trial for Ketan. I'm 100% satisfied with them. These are the sort of bearings you would expect to find in a heavy-duty precision spindle, with the advantage that they can be pre-loaded. pre-load should stop any side load from the belt mis-aligning the bearings. I also think that a poly-v should require less tension.

I have made three changes:

1. Increased rigidity by scraping the pillar bracket to a better fit and adding a bracing plate. (this would not apply to the 'new' Super X2)
2. Changing to belt drive
3. Fitting angular contact bearings

I now have a machine that gives me a much better finish, but i fear this tempts me to work it harder. I can't say which of the changes made the biggest difference, but the belt drive/bearings say a noticeable improvement over just improving rigidity. The mill is now much quieter as well.

I don't know if angular contact bearings could be fitted to the X1?

I have written this up for a potential MEW article, but I need to take some more pictures before sending it to David.

Neil

[Keith Wardill 1Participant @keithwardill1]

VC.

Sorry about the belated reply – never enough time to do the necessary.

I hope you don't get troubles with the electronics of your mill. I got involved with mine maybe 10 years ago now, when I bought a Sieg type lathe and mill from a German importer (I lived Germany then). At first I had little work for the miller, but I managed to burn out the lathe control circuit in a matter of days. I eventually replaced the output drivers (I think this may be what you mean when you refer to the devices bolted to a heatsink). However, they went 'phut' sp many times that I became thoroughly sick of it. I also found out that the mill circuit was almost identical (there were differences in speed compensation circuitry, but they were both built on identical PCBs, with some detail changes – identical output stages.

There have been multiple threads on this issue, and the clearest thing which has emerged from them is that there seems to be several different versions of the controller/motor combination. Predominantly there seems to be what I call the 'old' version, which has two parallel output drivers on heatsinks, and a small daughterboard attached to the main PCB. Someone in this forum posted a circuit diagram and photos of this some time time ago, but beware, there are differences between the circuit and actual PCBs. I obtained a later controller from a German source, using a single out put stage – much better design, and built with SMD components. This was very good, but had no adjustments, and I found that it would not start from zero RPM – the (mill) motor ran at quite RPM when the start button was pressed.

I have also seen other controller variants fitted to these machines. I guess Ketan Swali could also supply some info on these controllers – I believe his company supplies replacements, and I know he has commented on this in the past.

I eventually got sick of the whole story – I bought the machines to do work, not to have to spend my time repairing or modifying them, so I built a foldback current-limited controller. This simply monitors the current taken by the motor, and when it begins to rise sharply (if the motor is overloaded or stalled), it immediatelyreduces current supplied to zero. I have never had a controller problem since this was done.

Whilst I agree to some extent with Ketans statement that these are lightweight machines. If you overload them then you can expect problems, but I would point out that the electronics (and sometimes the gears) apparently fail in normal use – look back through old threads in this and other forums. I believe there is a requirement that articles sold for public consumption should be 'fit for purpose', and it would seem that some variants of these machines are not fit for purpose for one reason or another. I think this is demonstrated by the number of posts asking for help to fix a problem, or the number of websites offering 'updates' to workaround the problem. Whether the machine costs 350 pounds or 3500 pounds (and I wish I had money like that to spare for my hobbies!), while I agree that it is impossible to allow for machine abuse, it should still do what it is sold for.

[Gone AwayParticipant @goneaway]

Posted by Raymond Anderson on 10/11/2012 17:50:55:

I for one don't buy into this "it's designed as a fail safe" crap,

 

What Ketan actually said was "The plastic gears are a fail safe ….".

They may be a de facto fail-safe without necessarily being designed as such. I lean towards the view that the use of plastic gears is more related to cost than mechanical design considerations. Equally though, I think Ketan is correct in that they do, in fact, act as a fail-safe.

In this case the gears are reasonably simple to replace but that doesn't apply to some other machines where they have used plastic gears …. which reinforces my belief that they were used primarily for cost rather than mechanical reasons.

 

Edited By Sid Herbage on 10/11/2012 18:51:23

[Raymond AndersonParticipant @raymondanderson34407]

Utter crap, plastic gears on milling machines or lathes are nasty, cheap and not very cheerful, better off with metal gears and a shear pin some where in the drive train [NO,not in the gear box] I am not saying that these machines are bad but plastic gears? come on! a little more thought into the drive train design and choice of materials could save a lot of these types of problems. but here's the rub,the said machines would become slightly more expensive so managers at the factory says we stick with the crap plastic and let the poor sods pay for replacements. [even when they have been known to break under normal [for that type of machines] cutting loads. even replacing a fuse would be prefrerable to having to replace crappy plastic gears. and Mr Swali you are correct that the factory "does not have to prove anything to me" as I would never buy a milling machine or lathe with gears like those in question.

Regards,

Raymond.

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Posted by Stub Mandrel on 10/11/2012 18:29:26:

I don't know if angular contact bearings could be fitted to the X1?

Neil,

The spindle bearings in the X1/SX1 are thin section = slim ball bearings. Angular contact ball bearings as suitable replacements would be difficult to find.

Still, glad to read about your X2 upgrades.

Ketan.

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Posted by wotsit on 10/11/2012 18:34:14:

… while I agree that it is impossible to allow for machine abuse, it should still do what it is sold for.

Wotsit,

I agree with most of what you say, even though I believe that you may be referring to the X2 mill.

There are control boards with and without electric overload protection…built to a price..depending on distributors demands. Fit for purpose?….agreed…and depending on your point of view…depending on what you want to spend, in the main, most of these machines are fit for purpose.

Now, if 'fit for purpose' is to be labeled to machines..perhaps we should also consider if the user is 'fit for purpose'?. I ask this question with the greatest of respect. This is not an arguement with you. It is a general statement. When this comment of 'fit for purpose' is made, why should it only apply to the machine and not the user?

Ketan at ARC.

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Posted by Sid Herbage on 10/11/2012 18:50:11:

Posted by Raymond Anderson on 10/11/2012 17:50:55:

I for one don't buy into this "it's designed as a fail safe" crap,

 

What Ketan actually said was "The plastic gears are a fail safe ….".

They may be a de facto fail-safe without necessarily being designed as such. I lean towards the view that the use of plastic gears is more related to cost than mechanical design considerations. Equally though, I think Ketan is correct in that they do, in fact, act as a fail-safe.

In this case the gears are reasonably simple to replace but that doesn't apply to some other machines where they have used plastic gears …. which reinforces my belief that they were used primarily for cost rather than mechanical reasons.

 

Edited By Sid Herbage on 10/11/2012 18:51:23

Sid,

You may be aware that ARC sells metal gears for the old X2 and the mini-lathe. Personally, I think it is a bad idea, especially in mini-lathes and mini-mills with the circuit boards which do not have an overload protection. I am aware that it increases the risk of damage/fault developing on such circuit boards. But then, if customers want to damage their machines, who am I to stand in their way?

For the X1/SX1/SX1L, I have been offered metal gears. I simply refuse to sell them. The split second risk of damaging the circuit board are simply too high for me to consider selling them. People can really believe what they want to.

Ketan at ARC.

Edited By Ketan Swali on 10/11/2012 19:20:06

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Posted by Raymond Anderson on 10/11/2012 18:51:16:

Utter crap, plastic gears on milling machines or lathes are nasty, cheap and not very cheerful, better off with metal gears and a shear pin some where in the drive train [NO,not in the gear box] I am not saying that these machines are bad but plastic gears? come on! a little more thought into the drive train design and choice of materials could save a lot of these types of problems. but here's the rub,the said machines would become slightly more expensive so managers at the factory says we stick with the crap plastic and let the poor sods pay for replacements. [even when they have been known to break under normal [for that type of machines] cutting loads. even replacing a fuse would be prefrerable to having to replace crappy plastic gears. and Mr Swali you are correct that the factory "does not have to prove anything to me" as I would never buy a milling machine or lathe with gears like those in question.

Regards,

Raymond.

Slightly more expensive – LOL. Utter crap. Yup – what ever Mr.Anderson.

Ketan at ARC.

Edited By Ketan Swali on 10/11/2012 19:18:39

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Posted by Stub Mandrel on 10/11/2012 18:29:26:

Hi folks,

Just for clarity, my mill isan X2 – one of the first batch from ARC, I think.

1. Increased rigidity by scraping the pillar bracket to a better fit and adding a bracing plate. (this would not apply to the 'new' Super X2)

Just a small correction:

The Super X2 with belt drive with brushless motor from Axminster has a tilting column. ARC sells the the Super X2P which is a belt drive with brushless motor, with a thicker approx.10mm box section fixed column.

So Mr.Anderson, this machine is 'slightly' more expensive then the SX1L….ONLY about £240.00 more currently…so would this meet your requirements better? 

Ketan at ARC.

Edited By Ketan Swali on 10/11/2012 19:34:15

[Raymond AndersonParticipant @raymondanderson34407]

As far as the drive train goes then, if it had NO plastic gears then yes it would be a improvement.

[magpieParticipant @magpie]

I agree with Ketan when he says "we should consider if the user is fit for purpose". I attend a project called "Men In Sheds" (google it) and have become the unofficial maintainance man for the wood work machines. Most of the blokes there have never used any kind of machine before ( i suspect this is true of many starting this hobbie of ours) and you would cry if you saw the kind of abuse they get. So while the plastic gears may be fitted on cost grounds, they will also act as a kind of mechanical fuse. My X1 lasted 8-9 years before a much too short key ( 3mm long in a 10mm key slot ) stripped the inside of the gear.

Cheers Derek.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Sakai Machine Tools first little lathe, the ML1, was a beauty.

… and Toyo 5×4 cameras are very well respected.

MichaelG.

.

P.S.

Any Camera enthusiasts might like to read the final paragraph on this page.

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 10/11/2012 21:30:09

 

P.P.S.

Product History [linked from the Japanese website]

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 10/11/2012 21:40:55

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Posted by magpie on 10/11/2012 20:29:23:

I agree with Ketan when he says "we should consider if the user is fit for purpose". I attend a project called "Men In Sheds" (google it) and have become the unofficial maintainance man for the wood work machines. Most of the blokes there have never used any kind of machine before ( i suspect this is true of many starting this hobbie of ours) and you would cry if you saw the kind of abuse they get.

Cheers Derek.

Too right, I have come across people who have bought machines that I wouldn't trust with any implements other than a blunt spoon.

Too often what happens is they see an article, pictures or a model at a show and think "wow I'd like to do that "

Then they rush out buy the cheapest thing they can buy with no advise off anyone, then wonder why the first bit they turn or mill comes out looking like something Mad Mountain Dean has chewed on.

But it has to be the machine doesn't it ? Years ago I owned a Drummond round bed lathe, what a piece of crap, you had to close all the doors so there was no draught or it would turn a taper.

Having said that many people have build some serious gear on them. Take a look back thru ME and see how many posts were complaining posts given that most of the machines on the market like the Winfield, Zyto, Pooles, left a lot to be desired.

So were the machines better than we thought or was Grandad "Fit for purpose " ?

John S.

[magpieParticipant @magpie]

Hey John, I'm a bloody grandad 6 times over, but i suppose it depends what purpose you are talking about.

Cheers Derek.

[Michael HornerParticipant @michaelhorner54327]

"Plastic gears are crap"

I have a conquest mini-lathe from new, it must be over 10 year old, it came with plastic gears. I did the taper roller bearing upgrade I also have a 5" 3 jaw chuck fitted because I got fed up of changing jaws, this will indicate the size of material I am cutting. I purchased the internal metal gear upgrade from ARC just in case, those gears are still in their box!

Plastic gears are crap!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Are they fit for purpose???????????????????????????????????????????????????

Cheers Michael

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Graham,

Doesn't actually surprise me. many of the cheaper end products were operating one step away from bankruptcy, basically because they had to sell to a price. It's all right people saying there will always be a market for class goods but how big is that market compared to operating costs ?

Perhaps Myfords would be a good company to ask ?

The Winfield lathe was made close to me in Long Eaton. The 'works' were some stables at the back of two houses, they are still there.

One old boy who pops in most weeks for a coffee and chat used to know and knock about with Frank Winfield. He mentions that the spindle nose thread was put on in a big old lathe with a Coventry Die box. Wonder how accurate they were ?

The Winfield is a classic example of cutting costs where the carriage goes the wrong way due to not having an idler gear between the handwheel and the leadscrew, no rack, that like the idler gear costs money and the punter would like it but doesn't want to pay for it.

Now if that design was brought out today by the Chinese oh dear what a can of worms this would raise. You are right Graham, it's rose coloured glasses time.

John S.

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