Morse Taper Removal

[Jim GreetheadParticipant @jimgreethead]

Ian (Berto) would you believe it? Today I went in search of a tube spanner to convert into a “spanner/hammer” but the cupboard was bare. Spanners smaller and larger were available but the rack holding the ones I need was empty. So maybe lots of others have been reading this forum and have beaten me to it. Or maybe not.

 

Thanks for the additional explanation Jon. It sounds like I am stuck with the limitations of the HM45 added to my own limitations. Just as well bog and paint are still available.

 

And then yesterday, I tried to counterbore a 1/8 inch hole using a 1/4 inch 3 flute end mill in the Jacobs chuck (yes, yes yes, but I had several holes to drill and counterbore). I am not sure if what I saw was “orbital precession” but the cutter seemed to be walking around the circumference of the hole. The counterbore measured 7mm.

 

I have yet to try the other combinations: using drill for counterbore (the bottom need not really be flat), use collet chuck for the 3 flute cutter and use 4 flute cutter in the Jacobs chuck.

 

I have certainly used milling cutters in the Jacobs chuck for counterboring before but usually, I am watching the depth of cut rather than the actual operation. But I am usually cutting aluminium (this was cast iron) and don’t usually get oversize holes.

 

I just thought it was a bit of a coincidence after the discussion.

 

Jim

 

[BERTOParticipant @berto]

G’day Jim.

Yep 17mm is common !

Maybe if you had say some 40 or 50mm(1-5/8 or 2″ for us metric haters !) roundbar or even square bar as it doesn’t really matter then cut a length say 3 inches long (75mm ) and tap a hole in one end you can screw on an endcap made from brass or lead then tap another hole mid way along its length at 90 degree to the axis , this is for the handle .

On the other end simply mill a slot to fit the head of the drawbar and by doing this you have created an open end spanner / wrench .

After todays play in the shed in which i must have changed between a boring head ,a collet chuck and a drill chuck at least 20 times i will be making something similar very soon !

Everytime you want the spanner it is never at hand and the hammer- well it just seems to find its own place to hide !

Another thing i am thinking is to use to hoop type hammer holder that a builder / carpenter uses on thier belt and fit something similar to the side if my mill so when i use the hammer / spanner unit i can simply slot it back into its holder that way i have both tools at my fingertips when i want them !

 

Also oddly enough i was using a 1/2 inch end mill to counterbore 2 x 5-1/6 holes in black steel , the first had no issues but on the second i got some chatter so i stopped and checked things over and i had not tightened the locks on the head / column dovetail .

I was using a collet chuck though as i will not even think of sticking a milling cutter of any kind in a jacobs chuck as they are not rigid enough in any way and the tooling is too expensive to replace .

I usually end up setting up my ER32 chuck and have the correct collets, drills and counterbores ready in sequence so i can drill , clearance then counterbore each hole then move on , it does go reasonably quickly once you get into a rhythm.

I have the same machine as you (HM45/46)and have had no problems so far but maybe you could check the gib adjustments and keep the spindle as far up in the head as possible when machining as any play in the spindle housing bore is is magnified the further the spindle projects from the head .

 

Regards..

 

Ian

[JonParticipant @jon]

Jim bet the cutter was knackered. I do similar most days and drill through 16mm as many as 144 holes on chamfers with three flute 3mm to 6mm in a chinese freebie chuck.

Quite a few 4 flute are not centre cutting and leave a pip.

I must stress this, you have to get the feel for whats happening rather than force.

 

The only real limitation on my 45 is top speed of 1250 rpm.

Several mods have to be done enabling larger bearings.

[MICHAEL WILLIAMSParticipant @michaelwilliams41215]

Alan ,

 

Some people seem to be genuinely interested in this subject . Would it be ok with you if I posted the substance of those pm’s for general viewing ?

 

 

MW

[Jim GreetheadParticipant @jimgreethead]

Ian: The spanner I needed was 13/16″ ( and you reckon metric is weird) and I was after a tube spanner because I have a cunning plan. I would still like to have the spanner and hammer on the drawbar but to avoid the problems associated with the moment of inertia. So … I am thinking of putting a spring under the spanner so it is not locked to the drawbar and then incorporating a heavy handwheel that can tap out the tool.

 

And if that does not work, I will cut the tube spanner in half and put the hammer on the other end and a handle in the middle.

 

And if none of that works, keeping it in a loop in the vicinity sounds good.

 

And yes, I am aware of the limitations of the Jacobs chuck and would never (well hardly ever) apply radial loads to it. But for counterbores, it is just acting in the drilling mode so I thought it would be alright. I must admit that I had not considered your scheme of setting up the various tools in their collets but it makes sense and is probably no more time-consuming than using the Jacobs chuck. Thanks for the tip. And for the other suggestions.

 

Jon: I must check the cutter. It is relatively new and has not done any serious work. It is not a Dormer but I think it came from a reputable source.

 

Thanks for the continued discussion

 

Jim

 

[JonParticipant @jon]

Its the tool quality that counts i have a new 10.5mm Titex Plus two flute that has only drilled 12 holes in 6082, that started going after a few holes 12mm deep with already 5/16″ holes through.

I love them cheap long Hertel JL3 disposables up to 6mm.

 

I hate to think how long it takes to undo, remove the ER collet, clip it out, clip new back in, locate thread and tighten each time with two spanners.

Quick fail safe route a decent quick release drill chuck have drills and taps laid out 5 to 10 secs to change hand tight – every one a gem whats all the fuss about.

Now i am sure you are fully aware of the precession of using such extended collets amplifying any runouts and stressing the bearings a lot more.

While i dont advocate milling with a drill chuck, i do it all the time and to good effect. Its only when a long winded job is on requiring precision stuff i will change over to collets. Plus its knowing what the tools will take rather than the big ooooh no mustnt do that attitudes.

 

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

My method is to drill hole, start counter bore with normal drill,then finish it with either an end mill, or a D bit,that way I get the c/bore the right size and concentric.
Ian S C

[MICHAEL WILLIAMSParticipant @michaelwilliams41215]

Alan ,

Some people seem to be genuinely interested in this subject . Would it be ok with you if I posted the substance of those pm’s for general viewing ?

 

I haven’t heard back but I don’t suppose he would mind so :

 

From: MICHAEL WILLIAMS
Subject: Morse taper removal

Hi Alan ,

 

Try this :

 

Make a little operating lever like the overarm lever on George Thomas’ mini drill . Arrange a pivot somewhere on the top of the machine so that the lever bears down on the end of the milling drawbar with about a 10: 1 lever ratio between handle and drawbar position . Arrange lever to fold back completely out of the way when not in use .

 

To release tapers (after loosening drawbar nut) just flip lever into place and push handle down gently whereon 2MT arbour will pop out in a controlled way and with no shock load to machine bearings .

 

In situations where the permanent presence of the lever might cause problems due (eg) to lack of room or such like it can be made rapidly mountable/demountable . This is quite easy to do – replace the pivot hole in the lever with a tang or notch which can be rapidly hooked under a small fitment permanently on the machine . A couple of seconds to put in place and a couple of seconds to remove .

 

MW

[Jim GreetheadParticipant @jimgreethead]

Sounds a bit long-winded Michael: use spanner to loosen the drawbar a bit, pull down (or fit) the lever, move lever out of the way, unscrew drawbar.

 

Certainly, it eliminates the “whack” but after the foregoing posts, I wonder if that is a problem.

 

Now if you attached an air hammer to the lever …

 

It is Xmas – must go and check if Santa has left any goodies in the workshop.

 

‘Ave a good one, all of you

 

Jim

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

This won’t help those who have Morse Tapers on their milling machines, but:

The “correct” taper for the Mill is not self-locking. There are variations on the theme, but they are all much steeper than Morse, and therefore require only a light tap on the drawbar, to release them.

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 24/12/2011 22:41:25

[TerrydParticipant @terryd72465]

Hi Jim,

 

I just use a lead or copper hammer, loosen the drawbar by half a turn and give a solid, ‘dead’ thud on the top of the drawbar, more of a hefty push really, difficult to describe but easy to demonstrate. If you have to use a ruddy great lump hammer, the problem is caused by over tightening the draw bar and hence the Morse taper in the first place. I can’t remember ever having a taper tool come loose (I have had collets and chucks do that in the mill due to the intermittent shock loading inherent in the milling process) and I have never used a great deal of force when tightening. There are far too many gorillas in machine shops already.

 

By the way, never use any lubrication on a Morse taper. They work by friction and lubrication is intended to overcome friction, just keep the mating parts clean and ding free! Nuff said?

 

Happy Yuletide ,

 

Terry

[Jim GreetheadParticipant @jimgreethead]

That sounds about right Terry, it is really just a drop of an inch or two under gravity with the lump hammer. I could use a lead or copper hammer but I don’t have one and probably don’t need one for this job.

 

Everything clean and definitely no lubrication.

 

‘Ave a good one.

 

Jim

 

[David CauntParticipant @davidcaunt67674]

Hope this modified stolen pic shows how I got round the problem.

Dave

[Anthony KnightsParticipant @anthonyknights16741]

You could always make something similar to this **LINK**

[BOB BLACKSHAW 1Participant @bobblackshaw1]

Works on my  SX2p.

Bob SX2pW

Edited By BOB BLACKSHAW on 25/01/2020 11:53:11

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

For my elderly Mill/DRill, I removed the Left hand Threadede nut that holds the pulley to spindle. Turned back 1/8"

Took a piece of 1/8" steel, plate and bored a hole in nthe centre, to just fit over the nut.

Tapped two holes about the centreline. (1/4 BSF in my case )

Replaced the nut with the plate under it.

Took a similar piece of plate, drilled two 1/4 clearance holes on the same centres as the tapped holes.

Drilled and tapped a 1/4 BSF hole in the cemtre.

Fitted a long 1/4 BSF setscrew to the tapped hole, and two 1/4 BSF setscrews, of a suitable length, through the clearance holes..

When the time comes to remove 3MT tooling from the quill, slacken the Drawbar about a turn.

Screw the two 1/4 BSF setscrews into the plate, and tighten the central 1/4 BSF setscrew onto the top of the drawbar, and tighten. This should push the drawbar, and the tooling from the taper.

If, with the central screw really tight, the taper does not "break", a tap with a light hammer will do the trick.

This should subject the bearings to no or little force when removing tooling.

Howard

[larry phelan 1Participant @larryphelan1]

I always give the drawbar a little help with the aid of a piece of lead filled copper pipe 1" dia.

On another note, yesterday I drilled 25mm from the tailstock [ in stages ] without anything slipping.

[oldveloParticipant @oldvelo]

Hi

There are More

photos in my albums of a "Morse Taper Removal" for an X2 mill that may be of some use.

Eric

[Author]

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