Milling machines – western-made s/h recommendations up to £2k

[Anonymous]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 29/03/2021 16:37:33:

…………..Andrew Johnson keeps traction engines in the living room…..

Actually they're in the entrance hall. They were in the kitchen, but after a complete refit a couple of years ago i was told no way they're were going back. And you don't argue with my mum! The sitting room is for work in progress and parts waiting to be fitted:

Andrew

[Mike PooleParticipant @mikepoole82104]

Being a big lad my heel will put a load of 240lbs through a few square inches when walking, this does not trouble most floors although some sheds do skimp on the wood thickness used for a floor. A very strong wooden floor can be constructed for not too much money.

Mike

[VicParticipant @vic]

If you can get one in good condition these are very good and likely the inspiration for some Far East mills.

Omnimill

As for floors, concrete is horrible under foot compared to wood. I’ve had several of the former and now use the latter although it is on a concrete foundation. My Warco VMC works happily on it.

[William AyerstParticipant @williamayerst55662]

Yes, I guess I can use thick ply sheeting to reduce flex on the floor and potentially add more joists to reduce the centres, and then paving slabs/etc. under any machines as required. I leaned towards concrete because that was what my current garage is, but thinking about it, it is maybe unneccesary.

Just to be clear, for 5" gauge locos and 2"-scale traction engines with space to spare, what kind of X/Y/Z movement and table size should I be looking at? The VMC seems (obviously) much smaller than say a Bridgeport, but I'm not sure at what point I'm over egging the size requirements. This is separate to the discussion about overall mill size and weight if that's OK?

Thanks for the recommendation, Vic!

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

MY 2" Fowler which is a large 2" TE (ploughing engines excepted) was done on a mill with 400mm X. 160mm Y and 3000mm Z.

As for the shed if the existing base is suspect take it down and put a new base in. 100mm concrete with A142 mesh on 70mm PU insulation trowelled finish and paint or lay Film faced ply on top with DPM between. Rebuild shed adding wall and roof insulation.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by William Ayerst on 30/03/2021 09:11:57:

…The VMC seems (obviously) much smaller than say a Bridgeport, but I'm not sure at what point I'm over egging the size requirements. …

As a general rule, bigger is better. It's because big machines are more powerful, more rigid, and can take larger work. Usually, the limit is the maximum size of the job that can be accommodated: small mills can't do big work.

Less obviously, it's also easier to set work up on a big machine simply because there's more space. In comparison, squeezing work onto a small machine is tricky because of limited room for clamps, rotary tables, and other accessories. Rather than just bolting the job down and getting on with it, considerable ingenuity is required, just because the machine is too small.

The exception is small work, like clock or instrument making, because below a certain point big machines become unpleasantly clumsy. For that reason, some workshops have both big and small mills.

As to the size needed to make a 5" gauge loco's and 2" Traction Engines, I'll leave that answer to someone who has done it. If no advice is forthcoming, I'd get the plans of a suitable candidate and study them carefully, asking of each part, what do I need to make that? Things like wheels determine lathe swing, and perhaps the need to mill spokes with a rotary table drives how big a milling table is needed.

In my workshop, inside a single garage, I have the biggest lathe and milling machine I could get in. When they aren't big enough, I do the job by hand, change the design, or out-source the work. Most of us have to work around limitations occasionally. My biggest problem making a loco / traction engine isn't the machine tools, its my very limited brazing facilities: making a boiler is beyond my current workshop and skills. I'd almost certainly solve the problem by buying one.

Dave

[Anonymous]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 30/03/2021 10:33:23:

…….I'd get the plans of a suitable candidate and study them carefully, asking of each part, what do I need to make that?

That's what I did – bought the plans and then decided what machines to buy. The swing of the lathe was set by the flywheel and the distance between centres by the front/rear axles. To some extent it depends upon how much the OP wants to do himself. Making spur, bevel and worm gears for instance will dictate sizes and capability. I had to drill/bore the hornplates for my engines in several steps as the Bridgeport wasn't big enough, particularly in Y. I didn't turn my wheels but made them by the fudgeit and bodgeit method and hoping for the best. Most spoke/strake holes were freehand drilled, but I had to get creative for the first row of strake holes, even with a 12" rotary table:

The biggest issue will be Z, followed by Y and then X. I've run out of Z several times and have needed to buy stub drills/mills or collets. I've also run out of Y a few times, but X only when machining the rear rims before rolling:

I also ran out of Z on the horizontal when cutting the final drive gears:

i suspect size of mill will be dictated by a 2" scale traction engine – in general parts for a 5" gauge loco will be smaller. I'd also echo SoDs note about clamping. It can take up a surprising amount of space/travel, not just on the mill but also on the rotary table.

Andrew

[Nick Clarke 3Participant @nickclarke3]

Looking at the drawings for Maid of Kent I cannot see that there would be any difficulty fitting the components for the loco on even the smallest hobby mill – the assumption until the 1980s or so seems to have been that an amateur would use a vertical slide in the lathe for milling as it was not as usual as today for a milling machine to be available (although it usually was in a club workshop of course)

This is not to say that a small mill would necessarily have sufficient power to do the milling on a loco, just that bits would physically fit.

[William AyerstParticipant @williamayerst55662]

I see a Tom Senior listed not too far from me, is this a good bet?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/tom-senior-milling-machine/254927624387?hash=item3b5aded8c3:g:0N4AAOSwUlBgaKzO

[Pete.Participant @pete-2]

You don't have much space between the spindle and table with that, if you need it for drilling also, with a keyless chuck you'd be very limited with what you could drill.

[Tony RayParticipant @tonyray65007]

If you are going to use the shed then imho a concrete floor with a damp proof membrane is a must. I would however seriously consider the nuclear option if you think you are going to outgrow the shed as extending a slab is more work than pouring a new one. My friend built his 5 x5M wooden workshop 25yrs ago and apart from renewing the paint it has had no more maintenance that my blockwork one. I built the daughter aplay shed using the same principles which my missus has been using as a home office since the first lockdown it’s a great space. The construction techniques are simple and the materials readily available. I would recommend the use of bitumen roof shingle over felt every time.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by William Ayerst on 03/04/2021 23:28:50:

I see a Tom Senior listed not too far from me, is this a good bet?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/tom-senior-milling-machine/254927624387?hash=item3b5aded8c3:g:0N4AAOSwUlBgaKzO

 

 

Popular make, rarely criticised, this particular model a bit small for you maybe. Read all about them at lathes.co.uk

Don't forget this is a second-hand machine of unknown vintage, it's been restored, and there isn't much technical detail in the advertisement, such as motor power.

Write out 1000 times: 'Condition is everything when buying second-hand.'

Ideally machines should be seen cutting metal by someone who knows what to look for. Faults, missing parts, knackered bearings, smoking motors, and significant wear and tear are far more obvious when machines are put to work. Minor problems are to be expected, and often easy to fix, but it's never good to spend a lot of money on kit that turns out to need multiple major repairs. New motor, rewire electrics, replace lead-screws, bearings, grind bed, weld cracks etc. As vertical milling machines are top heavy, they fall over during moves more than might be expected, Look for repaired handle-wheels on bent axles! Personally, I distrust fresh paint and signs of recent cleaning. Could be the seller has genuinely improved the cosmetics to get more money, or it might mean the machine has been tarted up to hide faults, like cracked castings.

On the plus side, many Tom Seniors are in reasonable condition, and they make a decent small workshop mill.

Dave

PS.  Don't forget Covid Restrictions!

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 04/04/2021 10:29:25

[Dave HalfordParticipant @davehalford22513]

It's got the horizontal bits

It will cut your gears

It's got a power traverse

It's been nibbled by rust on the horizontal parts, but not on the table where it matters.

Go and beat him down £300 for the rust damage whilst channeling SOD sucking his teeth

[Kiwi BlokeParticipant @kiwibloke62605]

I don't think anyone has mentioned Emco's FB-2. A beautifully-built and accurate machine, which clearly inspired a number of variably miserable oriental knock-offs. Table power-feed available (at a price). It isn't the largest or most rigid machine, of course, but has a small footprint and can manage large workpieces for its size. If it's good enough for Graham Meek and Joseph Noci… (just look at their work and feel humble).

[William AyerstParticipant @williamayerst55662]

Thank you for the tips re: the Tom Senior – unfortunately no delivery on the item at all, so I'm having to wait until I can call a company and get a quote on that. I do have a VW Camper van and have read that some mills (such as the Senior) can be broken down into bits big enough to lug into a van, would that work for this one?

I will also check out the FB-2. I have been keeping a weather eye on eBay but no VMCs, no Raglans, no Centec 2B's with a vertical head – although it seems HomeMachineryWorkshop has a 2A but it's over £2400!

Luckily I'm in no rush and I can wait for the right item, but I can see why people would prefer to put their money in the hands of Warco/ArcEuroTrade and get something from China…

[Kiwi BlokeParticipant @kiwibloke62605]

Hi William,

I have moved (and owned) a Tom Senior M1, Tom Senior Universal, Centec 2A and Centec 2B single-handed, using a LWB Land Rover. They all come apart easily and quickly enough. The manufacturers' bases are bulky and heavy, and the main bodies ( 'columns' ) are fairly heavy, so an assistant is useful – otherwise it's inclined planes, baulks of timber, levers, sweat and swearing. All those machines are good in their own way, but will all now be showing signs of age and/or abuse, and they are large for their capacity. Also, vertical heads, particularly with a quill, are like hens' teeth. Top speeds are also low. My view is that Seniors were no-nonsense, heavy and crude, but less refined than Centecs. Centecs suffered from small tables. The Centec C was, unfortunately, very rare, and I wouldn't try to move one of them…

The Emco FB-2 is altogether lighter, and far easier to dismantle and move.

You might also consider Boxford's milling machine. AFAIK, no quill-feed head was available for the excellent Harrison mill, which, like most horizontal machines, was very short of headroom when fitted with the vertical head.

I think the versatility of a vertical mill, with a swivelling, quill-feed head is a winner, for 'reasonable-sized' work.

BTW, Myford's mills were tarted-up (by Myford) Taiwanese machines. Apparently OK quality. The smallest did not have a swivelling head.

Hope this helps. Good luck with your quest.

Edited By Kiwi Bloke on 05/04/2021 10:37:08

Edited By Kiwi Bloke on 05/04/2021 10:37:54

[William AyerstParticipant @williamayerst55662]

"Large for their Capacity" I guess comes with the territory of older machines, huh?

Unfortuantely no Boxford milling machines available at the moment either – gosh, like real hens teeth!

As I said I think I'd be fairly satisfied with a separate drilling machine to go with the miller if I ended up with something without a quill head or much clearance – I can still centre drill the holes with a mill's precision and then go through on the drill press, right?

I guess the real issue may be that without lots of (how much?) clearance I'll run into trouble when using something like a rotary table or dividing head…

It's a shame that the Centec 2B's with a vertical head are more like £3k – the 2A from home machinery workshop seems in fair nick but is also missing some parts, a mismatched vertical head, etc. and is £2400. Are you saying though, that overall this might be a better choice than the Senior?

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Dave Halford on 04/04/2021 11:08:46:…

…

Go and beat him down £300 for the rust damage whilst channeling SOD sucking his teeth

Good idea, except it's on ebay auction as a 'Buy Now for £1500' or 'Make an Offer' sale. So far no one has bought it or made an offer, suggesting no-one is interested. (Bet they are!) If I wanted it, sight unseen, I'd make a much lower offer and see what happens. It might just be rejected, or in the worst case it might trigger a bidding war by forcing other parties to join in. If no-one else wants it, might be got for a low price, or we might see the price go above 'Buy it Now'.

William mentions the cost of moving it, which has to be a consideration. DIY moving is cheapest provided the basics are available, perhaps a couple of fit-ish blokes able to dismantle and reassemble, plus a vehicle capable of taking the weight, with crane, rollers, ropes etc as necessary to get it on and off. My car is too small, and has a high boot lip, but an estate or decent trailer (weight and brakes!) would do it. The easiest way is to pay a mover*, who will have all the gear needed to do the job, the only problem is paying him! Delivery is one of the problems fixed by buying new: a nice man turns up in a big lorry, with a pallet truck, and rear lift. Ordinary delivery won't heave it through the house, across the garden and into a workshop, but I believe installation is available at extra cost £££.

Dave

* There is a machine mover who people often recommend. Can anyone remember who I mean?

[Dave HalfordParticipant @davehalford22513]

William,

The Raglan is quite small and size wise in a different league to the others.

Rent a van for a day and save the interior of your poor old camper.

[Dave HalfordParticipant @davehalford22513]

Landy Lift?

West Yorkshire though.

Edited By Dave Halford on 05/04/2021 10:57:01

[Kiwi BlokeParticipant @kiwibloke62605]

Beware the 'professional' machine mover! I have seen some in action (in UK) – strops around handles, or anything that sticks out, seems common practice. Some are doubtless OK, but how do you tell?

It's all very well to get the massive beast moved, and dropped(!) at your front door, but what then? That's another reason why dismantling and moving it yourself is a good idea…

Edited By Kiwi Bloke on 05/04/2021 11:01:48

[William AyerstParticipant @williamayerst55662]

Maybe it would be a shout to ask the seller to show me it working, then assist disassembly at his location and loading into a rental van. I have a sack trolley and at my end it's a shallow sloping driveway and straight flat across paving into the future workshop.

I've nothing to lose on offering on the Senior so I think I'll do that. My previous worries about height are a little less concerning aftering seeing this screencapture, but am I well off-base with regard to using the mill to spot drill and a drill press to open out larger holes?

I guess there will be more of fixing things to the table to get that extra Z distance with this a machine like this rather than a pure vertical?

Cheers,

[Dave HalfordParticipant @davehalford22513]

Lets put it this way. There no chance of me paying £1500 to fit a quill head on my Centec 2A and I'm pretty sure thats what the owner of the blue machine does. (use a bench drill)

Edited By Dave Halford on 05/04/2021 12:14:05

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

Is there not a current thread running re improving a Senior vertical clearance?

[Paul KempParticipant @paulkemp46892]

Just be patient and wait till you find an Omnimill (home workshop had one recently for £1600). They are rare but they are about and no you can't have mine! Verical head can go up to 3000 rpm, can be positioned anywhere over the table plus you have the horizontal spindle. If you get the morse taper version tooling can be swapped between spindles. Some people have mentioned the vertical head could do with more support, I haven't found that an issue personally but there are ways to address if you do. Very versatile machine.

Paul.

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