Making a Tender water tank

[BazParticipant @baz89810]

[BazParticipant @baz89810]

Gentlemen, I am about to make a tender water tank. I have all the Brass sheet cut to size and plenty of 1/4" brass angle to hold it all together but I can find no information on making it water tight. Do I tin the brass angle and sweat it together, if so what solder and flux do I need, large soldering iron or flame,or do I assemble it "dry" and seal all edges with something like Araldite. How did you make yours? Thanks for your time reading this.

[Another JohnSParticipant @anotherjohns]

Baz;

My last tender tanks were brass, angle, soldered with "plumbing solder". You have to watch, as the heat will distort flat surfaces, like the tender tank bottom.

I have never tinned the angle, just add flux with a brush, carefully heat, and let the solder run along. If you heat one side of the tender (the outside) and apply solder to the inside, you'll see it all go together well. The solder will flash along the angle, via capillary action, so you'll see it's progress.

But I like what Nick Feast did for his Q1 tender – glue it together! Find the articles and read them. I like the way Nick was thinking outside of the box when he made his Q1.

I think for one of my tenders, almost complete save for the soldering, I will seal it with a gasket material, not solder. We'll see what this winter brings, though…

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

On the two brass traction engihe tenders that I have made they were all put together dry with a few bolts in the rivit holes, when all was complete I took it apart and tinned the mating surfaces, rivited it and then sweated it together. I just used plumbers solder & flux, on the smaller minnie I did most with a large iron, on the larger Fowler I used a small burner and just chased the solder along the joints, don't get it all too hot otherwise plates start to buckle.

[Roger VaneParticipant @rogervane67137]

When I made the tanks for my 5" Firefly, I riveted all parts together and then 'painted' Araldite around the joints to be sealed.

Before the Araldite had cured, I heated the tanks with a hot air gun which turned the Araldite into a liquid which flowed like water into all joints, making the seal and enhancing the strength of the joints.

A different approach, but one which worked ok.

[BazParticipant @baz89810]

John, Jason, what flux did you use? I have got multicore solder and a paste flux but it is hard to remove the residue, can you please provide brand names especially for flux, I assume plumbers solder can be got from the plumbing section of builders merchants

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

flux

solder

B&Q, Screwfix, Local Merchant

[Bob Brown 1Participant @bobbrown1]

Plumbers solder is now in the main lead free or at least as far as drinking water supplies are concerned, does not apply to central heating systems which can use leaded solder.

As a note

Melting Temperature for Leaded Solder: 280 to 380°C
Melting Temperature for Lead-Free Solder: 400 to 500°C

So more heat is required with lead free solder so there is a greater risk of distortion

Also different flux.

Bob

Edited By Bob Brown 1 on 19/08/2014 18:53:03

[BazParticipant @baz89810]

Thanks very much Jason, will get some tomorrow and give it a try, I will also dig out the Q1 articles and have a read of how Nick done his tender. Thanks to all who have responded, I shall try all methods on some scrap pieces and see which one I am most confident with.

[nigel jones 5Participant @nigeljones5]

I just finished a 71/4 for Invicta. Buy your solder from Screwfix (other places may be available) as they still sell a lead based thick roll. Don't be shy with it when applying as its easy to remove afterwards but do as others have suggested, hold it together first. One thing to be very careful of….if you get too much heat into it the whole lot will suddenly go liquid, and all your hard work is undone. Try to keep finished sections cool with a wet rag or the like. And I found it easier to control the heat using oxy than propane, but don't try it unless you are confident. If you get a pot of self cleaning flux you wont go far wrong (designed for copper but still helps I believe).

[Boiler BriParticipant @boilerbri]

Baz I don't meant to hijack your thread, but as we're talking solder—-can cast iron be silver soldered?

I did not notice but my cutter  in the miller slipped and cut deeper than I wanted on a cast iron piece. I would like to fill it in with silver solder. 

Bri

Edited By Boiler Bri on 19/08/2014 21:07:44

[julian atkinsParticipant @julianatkins58923]

hi bri,

you cant silver solder cast iron. you can sifbronze it.

cheers,

julian

[Boiler BriParticipant @boilerbri]

Thank you for the reply,

i did not want to make the part again.

Brian

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

> you cant silver solder cast iron. you can sifbronze it.

I can and have. I make no exaggerated claims for the strength of the joint, but it's certainly more than adequate for a cosmetic repair. Apparently one critical issue is making sure the surfaces haven't been exposed to oil.

Neil

[julian atkinsParticipant @julianatkins58923]

hi neil,

if you successfully silver soldered cast iron then you are the only person ive come across in 31 years who has 'successfully' done this! if so, very well done, but i regret that the carbon in cast iron will ensure your achievement is a miracle!

cheers,

julian

[stan pearson 1Participant @stanpearson1]

Hi Julian

Your right about silver solder wont make a good joint on cast iron but you can soft solder it, about soldering brass tender tanks I get mine from a local car radiator repairer he sells me strips of leaded a lot cheaper than B&Q

Stan

[Bob YouldonParticipant @bobyouldon45599]

Baz, good evening,

Should you choose to solder your tender then try to obtain a can of Bakers fluid, as a flux it'll clean almost anything; that together with a pot of La-Co flux or similar paste flux, available from most builders merchants etc, both are water soluble. so the residues are easily washed out with hot soapy water. Try to get a reel of lead based solder and don't use multi core as it has a resin flux which is a devil to remove. All of my tenders in the last few years have been prepared by tinning all the mating faces before assembly and soldering. My soldering method follows much as that of Jason B using a small gas blowtorch, remember flux is cheap and if you haven't attempted to solder a large brass structure before with the blowtorch, try with some scrap pieces of brass sheet first, you'll find you will only need sufficient gentle heat to locally run the solder and keep dipping the end of the solder into the flux pot before appalling the solder to the job. Also remember the job needs to be sufficiently hot enough to melt the solder directly it's applied to the work and importantly work outside, any soldering fumes will rust anything in the workshop.

Best of luck

Regards,

Bob Youldon

[julian atkinsParticipant @julianatkins58923]

ive got quite a lot of old fashioned plumbers solder in large sticks/blocks that i use on tenders and tanks. i heat the tank/tender up in the gas stove then place on thermalite blocks gently waving the propane torch some distance away then after the adding the solder and bakers fluid hold the tank/tender with asbestos gloves as used in foundry work and swish about. everything is riveted with 1/16" copper rivets and screwed with 10 BA brass screws beforehand through the brass angle.

if you buy brass angle from say B & Q it has a nasty covering that needs cleaning off with a coarse file before attempting any soft soldering.

no DRO or CAD used in the above!!

cheers,

julian

Edited By julian atkins on 19/08/2014 23:28:03

[John BaguleyParticipant @johnbaguley78655]

Carr's do a very useful range of soft solders with lower melting points than the usual plumbers solders. Joints require less heat with less chance of distorting anything. I've used their 145 solder on tanks with either the appropriate Carr's flux or ordinary Bakers fluid. I've also used standard electronics 60/40 solders but the resin flux makes a bit of a mess.

John

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

The trick with silver soldering CI is to heat it first to bring the carbon to the surface, wire brush that off when cold and then you can solder it. Mike Sawyers Bently engine is a good example of how you CAN silver solder CI, as the cylinder block is made from 3 separate pieces

J

 

Edited By JasonB on 20/08/2014 07:57:17

[WorkshopPeteParticipant @workshoppete]

Good Morning All

I have successfully sliver soldered cast iron several times as I remember they were not over stressed parts a Record rabbit nosed plane and the port face of a 71/4" gauge Wren come to mind. I used easy flow 2 with the standard flux heated then when almost to temp wire brushed the joint with a brass brissell brush. Fluxand assemble then heat to temperature adding the solder. I think the big trick is to get everything to temperature quickly so as not to destroy the flux and the best way to do that is to use Oxy.

Cheers

Peter

[julian atkinsParticipant @julianatkins58923]

thank you Jason and Peter ive learnt something new and very interesting this morning! and with all due apologies to neil as well.

cheers,

julian

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Julian,

My example is nowhere near as neat as the one Jason gives. I had an odd bit of CI that I realised could become part of an engine bed if I cut off two bits and silver soldered them together.

I had heard rumours that you could join freshly cut CI surfaces completely free of oil so i thought I would try. You can see that the gap was a bit wide at the top but ethe SS (don't recall the grade) filled most of the gap and penetrated to the back along most of the joint.

I have never actually done anything with the result, but I have hit it with a hammer to see if the joint would fracture, and it didn't.

I suppose half of the fun of this hobby is doing things that aren't supposed to work, although that is not a good pathe when designing something for others to follow

Neil

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