injector problems still

[David TaylorParticipant @davidtaylor63402]

Posted by Ron Hancock on 03/03/2017 12:24:52:

Hi David where down under do you come from and yes never thought about how they perform down under in the heat their. Whilst visiting my Daughter in Melbourne we went to Cambel toen railway he has a lovely set up 2 12 mile track round his garden 3 steam two deisel and runs every weekend giving rides. He was after some injectors for his 7 14 he is not on the internet so not sure how he got on.

Hi Ron,

I'm about 4 hours west of Sydney. It has been one of the hottest summers anyone can remember getting up to 40deg C. Even water in tenders gets too hot for the injectors to work reliably. We didn't use ice on the Jan running day and had lots of problems. I was putting my loco back together after a major overhaul leading up to the running day and couldn't get the injectors to work until I fired it up early in the morning before the day heated up, and put fire bricks between the frames and injector bodies. Then they worked okay. I didn't bother putting water in the side tanks of my loco because it's well known that doesn't work well with injectors. I filled them with sand for weight.

During winter it goes from about -4dec C at night to 8-12deg C during the day. Maybe not as cold as the UK, but cold enough! Quite a temperature range around here.

I read a good web page someone wrote about the process he went through making and testing his own injectors, but I don't have his persistence so I'm not sure I'd make a go of it. But he had a means of testing them off the loco which seemed a good idea to eliminate the many parts on the loco which can be at fault.

As far as I can tell they work well until one of a million things upsets them and then you have the joy of cleaning them, checking the pipes, valves, taps, filters, clacks, sacrificing chooks, and who knows what else.

[Stewart HartParticipant @stewarthart90345]

Posted by Ron Hancock on 03/03/2017 12:15:51:

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 03/03/2017 08:49:48:

Posted by julian atkins on 02/03/2017 23:48:04:

I appreciate that Neil must defend his advertisers in his magazine, but this is no excuse for shoddy goods passed off as in the way they are described in those ME supplier's literature etc.

No excuses, they need to be ready to put things right if they sell faulty gear, just like anyone else should.

I just hadn't heard of, and couldn't find, any reference to Chinese made injectors, but if Ron has been told that some of the one he has had are imported, I'm happy to accept that.

We do benefit from many specialist suppliers who have an understanding of the hobby. Clearly while others have had no problems with injectors from multiple sources, Ron has had a string of bad ones. If he and other people who get such items don't feed back to the suppliers nothing will be done.

Ironically, injectors are the sort of precision product where CNC mass production should offer reliability and consistency. I suspect the problem is that the volumes out of China will never be large enough to justify the investment in time to get them right. Alternatively, perhaps a UK supplier with in-house CNC might wish to rise to the challenge.

Neil

Hope so would be nice if they do

Ron

Just to put this in a fresh context:-

Perhaps its all a matter of economics, from what I can understand a good working injector in the 1930 cost £1.50 when the average wage was £5/wk, in 2017 the average wage is around £500/wk meaning wages have increased by about 100 so the ? is would you pay £150 for a good reliable injector, when injectors of dubious quality are in the £30 to £40 range, if you drop on a good one at this price you've got yourself a bargane, but you may have to but 2 or 3 to find that one good one so in the end quality costs.

Back in the 1930 money was tight and people were more inclined to make do and mend and have a go at making stuff them selves. I must admit that I buy most of my fitting because of their low cost, its not worth the time and effort of making my own, but perhaps we need to change our thinking on this.

Stew

[Ron HancockParticipant @ronhancock63652]

Posted by David Taylor on 05/03/2017 00:38:52:

Posted by Ron Hancock on 03/03/2017 12:24:52:

Hi David where down under do you come from and yes never thought about how they perform down under in the heat their. Whilst visiting my Daughter in Melbourne we went to Camel town railway he has a lovely set up 2 12 mile track round his garden 3 steam two diesel and runs every weekend giving rides. He was after some injectors for his 7 14 he is not on the internet so not sure how he got on.

Hi Ron,

I'm about 4 hours west of Sydney. It has been one of the hottest summers anyone can remember getting up to 40deg C. Even water in tenders gets too hot for the injectors to work reliably. We didn't use ice on the Jan running day and had lots of problems. I was putting my loco back together after a major overhaul leading up to the running day and couldn't get the injectors to work until I fired it up early in the morning before the day heated up, and put fire bricks between the frames and injector bodies. Then they worked okay. I didn't bother putting water in the side tanks of my loco because it's well known that doesn't work well with injectors. I filled them with sand for weight.

During winter it goes from about -4dec C at night to 8-12deg C during the day. Maybe not as cold as the UK, but cold enough! Quite a temperature range around here.

I read a good web page someone wrote about the process he went through making and testing his own injectors, but I don't have his persistence so I'm not sure I'd make a go of it. But he had a means of testing them off the loco which seemed a good idea to eliminate the many parts on the loco which can be at fault.

As far as I can tell they work well until one of a million things upsets them and then you have the joy of cleaning them, checking the pipes, valves, taps, filters, clacks, sacrificing chooks, and who knows what else.

Hi Dave yes it does get so hot their i was very surprised it must be a nightmare keeping the water cool enough for injectors to work.

Don't you use axle pumps for times when its so hot just a thought.

my daughter is coming to visit this April from Narre Warren when we went a couple years ago most days stuck inside with air con on and cold beers think she will notice the difference now as she has been their about 6 years now.

I find it very interesting to read what its like running their fascinating.i loved going to see how my friends trains ran their.

Biggest surprise when a flipping great kangaroo jumped the fence in front of the train sure he wanted a ride too.

Colin was nearly 80 and his wife Nancy he wanted me to stay a few months and help him run his Loco's i have yet to see any so good.

Thank you for getting back to me.

Ron

[Ron HancockParticipant @ronhancock63652]

Edited By Ron Hancock on 05/03/2017 12:08:40

[Ron HancockParticipant @ronhancock63652]

Hi Dave thought i would share some shots of my friend Colin and Nancy Cambel from Melbourne Australia such nice wonderful couple with a 2 12 mile track in his back garden and runs every weekend.

[julian atkinsParticipant @julianatkins58923]

Dave's comments are of interest because an ordinary injector will not work if the feed water temperature is over 46 degrees C. The maths and science behind this is in DAG (Derek) Brown's excellent book on miniature injectors, and concurrs with the explanation in my second edition of Pullen's book dated 1900.

You can make an injector that will feed hot water, but it requires a second steam cone to be incorporated. Special injectors of this type were made by the UK major manufacturers in fullsize for use on locos in India and South Africa etc.

A miniature injector that is below the water supply will probably perform a bit better with a warmer feed water supply, compared to the same lifting type injector fitted above the water supply.

If I am running on a very hot day in the UK (very rare) I leave the injector water valves open all the time. The tender or tanks need replenishing far more often, but if a mains supply it will keep the feed water temperature down to well below 46 degrees C.

Cheers,

Julian

[David TaylorParticipant @davidtaylor63402]

Posted by julian atkins on 05/03/2017 21:14:47:

Dave's comments are of interest because an ordinary injector will not work if the feed water temperature is over 46 degrees C. The maths and science behind this is in DAG (Derek) Brown's excellent book on miniature injectors, and concurrs with the explanation in my second edition of Pullen's book dated 1900.

If I am running on a very hot day in the UK (very rare) I leave the injector water valves open all the time. The tender or tanks need replenishing far more often, but if a mains supply it will keep the feed water temperature down to well below 46 degrees C.

I doubt our water gets that hot, but our injectors stop working anyway. None of them are lifting injectors, they're all horizontal ones below the footplate so they're also below the level of the tender tank bottom.

We do the same thing leaving the water flowing through the injector the whole time.

Apparently we have a maker of reliable, high quality injectors here in Aus, two of which I have waiting for my NSW mogul. I don't want to try them on my current loco in case they get contaminated somehow!

[David TaylorParticipant @davidtaylor63402]

Posted by Ron Hancock on 05/03/2017 12:11:32:

Hi Dave thought i would share some shots of my friend Colin and Nancy Cambel from Melbourne Australia such nice wonderful couple with a 2 12 mile track in his back garden and runs every weekend.

Hi Ron,

A very impressive setup! Those are very big locos.

My father-in-law goes to a place in Qld where the bloke even makes scale bricks to make the buildings with, scale signals, etc.

[Werner SchleidtParticipant @wernerschleidt45161]

Hallo Ron,

I am Werner from Germany and I had experience using john Cashmores injectors at 3 locomotives without any problem. The day came on a club track the injector failed.

For me it was clear the injector is the problem. The Boiler check valve was OK. At home I tried from my other

locos perfect working injectors and they failed in the same way. At each time the injector want to start suddenly a steam water spray came out of the injector.

I decide to give a try with a silicon pipe with a water valve between in a external test pipe.

The injectors worked all very well. Then I test with the orignal valve from the loco with the silicon testpipe.

And the failure was very clear, if the injector trys to start and failed there were many many very small air bubbles

to see. That was the reason why the injector failed. The water valve wa water tight but not air thight.

I replaced the water valve and the injectors worked very well again.

That is what I learned from practice. And I have later learned to built injectors by my own with many try and error

but the work in the same way as the copied comercial ones.

best regards

Werner

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