injector problems still

[Ron HancockParticipant @ronhancock63652]

Hi again still having injector problems pulling my hair out.

yesterday took to the club to Run raised steam injector working fine took it on track after one lap it stopped working.

before going their the clacks have been changed for new ones i have changed all pipework to make sure no leaks i have washed boiler out with first costic solder the citric acid.

i then used air line blew out through bypass repeated again filling with boiling water and citric acid left for another hour the drained and gave good plush out with hose conected left running.

it seems each time i run it the injectors stop working even though i stripped them soaked in citric acid gave a good blow out.

i tried open valve so water coming out the open steam very slow water just pours out the bottom.

held a peice wood bottom of injector you coul hear it going into the boiler but as soon as i remove the wood it just poured out the bottom again.

just dont know what else i can try any sugestions please

Ron

[Ron HancockParticipant @ronhancock63652]

[Ron HancockParticipant @ronhancock63652]

Posted by Ron Hancock on 13/02/2017 15:09:47:

Hi again still having injector problems pulling my hair out.

yesterday took to the club to Run raised steam injector working fine took it on track after one lap it stopped working.

before going their the clacks have been changed for new ones i have changed all pipework to make sure no leaks i have washed boiler out with first costic solder the citric acid.

i then used air line blew out through bypass repeated again filling with boiling water and citric acid left for another hour the drained and gave good plush out with hose conected left running.

it seems each time i run it the injectors stop working even though i stripped them soaked in citric acid gave a good blow out.

i tried open valve so water coming out the open steam very slow water just pours out the bottom.

held a peice wood bottom of injector you coul hear it going into the boiler but as soon as i remove the wood it just poured out the bottom again.

just dont know what else i can try any sugestions please

Ron

[Ron HancockParticipant @ronhancock63652]

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

Can't help on injectors, but I wouldn't put caustic soda in a copper boiler. This website suggests it attacks both copper and brazed joints.

**LINK**

If nothing else, any spalshes will attack paint.

Edited By duncan webster on 13/02/2017 15:44:33

[MikelkieParticipant @mikelkie]

[MikelkieParticipant @mikelkie]

Check this book out . Wonderful info concerning injectors, problems, trouble shooting etc.

PM me i will try and email details on specific ploblems

Mike

 

Edited By Mikelkie on 13/02/2017 16:45:27

[Ron HancockParticipant @ronhancock63652]

Posted by duncan webster on 13/02/2017 15:44:17:

Can't help on injectors, but I wouldn't put caustic soda in a copper boiler. This website suggests it attacks both copper and brazed joints.

**LINK**

If nothing else, any spalshes will attack paint.

Edited By duncan webster on 13/02/2017 15:44:33

i tried it as the chemist at our club sugested that it could be flux still inside boiler as it a new boiler but had 12 leaks repaired at diffrent times.

willing to try anything as so demoralised so many failed attempts.

[Mark P.Participant @markp]

Ron, try boiling them for half an hour in vinegar, it has worked well for me in the past. Don’t put the used vinegar on your chips though!
Mark P.

[Ron HancockParticipant @ronhancock63652]

ronPosted by Mikelkie on 13/02/2017 15:47:25:

Check this book out . Wonderful info concerning injectors, problems, trouble shooting etc.

PM me i will try and email details on specific ploblems

Mike

Edited By Mikelkie on 13/02/2017 16:45:27

Thank you Mike just ordered it looking forward to reading it

[Ron HancockParticipant @ronhancock63652]

ronPosted by Mark P. on 13/02/2017 17:14:03:
Ron, try boiling them for half an hour in vinegar, it has worked well for me in the past. Don't put the used vinegar on your chips though!
Mark P.

Thanks for the Tip but they look spotless inside after citric acid

[stephen goodbodyParticipant @stephengoodbody77352]

A couple of thoughts Ron:

– Was the boiler pressure the same when it was working and when it was not working? Most injectors have an operating pressure range and won't work reliably above or below that range whatever it may be.

– Any chance that the water supply could have warmed up? As you know, most injectors become unreliable with warm water.

– If a tender loco, any chance that the feed pipe could have been kinked, worked loose, or even melted(!) during the run?

As an aside I once had a problem with a new injector that wouldn't feed reliably and would mostly dump water from the overflow, especially at the low end of its expected range (although it would occasionally work okay and could be made to feed by blocking the overflow). The problem turned out to be that the annular gap between the steam cone and combining cone was too large. After carefully removing some of the 'step' from the steam cone, so that the cone sat closer to the combining cone, all was well. About five thou was all it took.

Good luck

Steve Goodbody

 

 

Edited By stephen goodbody on 13/02/2017 22:53:29

[John BaguleyParticipant @johnbaguley78655]

Hi Ron,

Sorry to hear that you are still having problems.

Can you borrow an injector that is known to work reliably e.g. that is taken off someone else's loco? Swap that for one of yours and see if it makes any difference. If the other injector works then it's your injectors that are the problem. If the other injector doesn't work either then there is something wrong with your pipework etc.

Your problem suggests two possible causes to me (assuming that the injectors are not at fault). Either the steam supply to the injector is restricted somehow or your clack valves may not have enough lift on the balls.

Are you using commercial valves for the steam valves? Sometimes the passages through these valves are too small, especially on the globe type valves.

Injectors often need more lift on the balls in the clack valves than those used for hand pumps and axle pumps.

What size injectors are you using? If you are using say 24oz then try an 18oz. The smaller injector will need less steam and water so may work if the supplies are not enough for a 24oz. If the 18oz does work then you need to look at the steam and water supllies.

Have you got filters in the tender for the injector supply? If not, you could be getting muck in the water supply which will stop the injectors working after a time.

Be careful not to go overboard with pickling the injectors. The acids will eventually damage the brass cones and affect performance.

John

Edited By John Baguley on 14/02/2017 07:21:05

[Ron HancockParticipant @ronhancock63652]

then it just would not pick up water in tender was cold and no kinks in the pipe it's such a mister.

ronPosted by stephen goodbody on 13/02/2017 22:53:02:

A couple of thoughts Ron:

– Was the boiler pressure the same when it was working and when it was not working? Most injectors have an operating pressure range and won't work reliably above or below that range whatever it may be.

– Any chance that the water supply could have warmed up? As you know, most injectors become unreliable with warm water.

– If a tender loco, any chance that the feed pipe could have been kinked, worked loose, or even melted(!) during the run?

As an aside I once had a problem with a new injector that wouldn't feed reliably and would mostly dump water from the overflow, especially at the low end of its expected range (although it would occasionally work okay and could be made to feed by blocking the overflow). The problem turned out to be that the annular gap between the steam cone and combining cone was too large. After carefully removing some of the 'step' from the steam cone, so that the cone sat closer to the combining cone, all was well. About five thou was all it took.

Good luck

Steve Goodbody

Edited By stephen goodbody on 13/02/2017 22:53:29

It was picking up nicely on steam bay and did one lap working fine.

[Ron HancockParticipant @ronhancock63652]

Posted by stephen goodbody on 13/02/2017 22:53:02:

A couple of thoughts Ron:

– Was the boiler pressure the same when it was working and when it was not working? Most injectors have an operating pressure range and won't work reliably above or below that range whatever it may be.

– Any chance that the water supply could have warmed up? As you know, most injectors become unreliable with warm water.

– If a tender loco, any chance that the feed pipe could have been kinked, worked loose, or even melted(!) during the run?

As an aside I once had a problem with a new injector that wouldn't feed reliably and would mostly dump water from the overflow, especially at the low end of its expected range (although it would occasionally work okay and could be made to feed by blocking the overflow). The problem turned out to be that the annular gap between the steam cone and combining cone was too large. After carefully removing some of the 'step' from the steam cone, so that the cone sat closer to the combining cone, all was well. About five thou was all it took.

Good luck

Steve Goodbody

hi steve thats what is happening with my injector it seems to work better at 40 to 60 does not like 85 psi.

Water is cold in tender and i use deisel fuel pipe thats strong and no kinks it has brilliant flow out the bottom of the injector.

i have checked to make sure no air leaking in as i say on steaming bay works fine do one lap 13 mile no problem after that just pours out the bottom of injector.

i have held a peice wood on bottom of injector you can hear the water going in but as soon as you remove it just pours from the bottom again.

Ron

Edited By stephen goodbody on 13/02/2017 22:53:29

[stephen goodbodyParticipant @stephengoodbody77352]

I know how frustrating these things are. The really good news is that you know that the injector worked before you got it on the track – that's much better than one that won't work at all!.

My strong suspicion is that there is a tiny air leak somewhere in the water supply (copper piping and unions, flexible piping and connectors, water valve glands etc) that's opening up due to the the motion of the engine. It doesn't take much (and you may not even be able to see the hole or gap) but that would certainly cause the problem you are having. An alternative possibility is that there is muck in the tank that's getting stirred up and sucked into the feed on the run, but I think that the air leak is more likely from what you're saying.

As a suggestion, I would be inclined to steam it up in the steaming bay (or at home) and then wiggle the piping, connectors, valve stem etc and see if you can make the injector knock off. If you can then you've found your culprit.

One thing that is not totally clear to me – does the injector only fail when the loco is running on the track? In other words, when it fails and you bring it back to the steaming bay, does it then pick up fine without your doing anything else to it?

Good luck Ron,

Steve

[Ron HancockParticipant @ronhancock63652]

Posted by stephen goodbody on 14/02/2017 13:16:28:

I know how frustrating these things are. The really good news is that you know that the injector worked before you got it on the track – that's much better than one that won't work at all!.

My strong suspicion is that there is a tiny air leak somewhere in the water supply (copper piping and unions, flexible piping and connectors, water valve glands etc) that's opening up due to the the motion of the engine. It doesn't take much (and you may not even be able to see the hole or gap) but that would certainly cause the problem you are having. An alternative possibility is that there is muck in the tank that's getting stirred up and sucked into the feed on the run, but I think that the air leak is more likely from what you're saying.

As a suggestion, I would be inclined to steam it up in the steaming bay (or at home) and then wiggle the piping, connectors, valve stem etc and see if you can make the injector knock off. If you can then you've found your culprit.

One thing that is not totally clear to me – does the injector only fail when the loco is running on the track? In other words, when it fails and you bring it back to the steaming bay, does it then pick up fine without your doing anything else to it?

Good luck Ron,

Steve

No once it stops it won't pick up again so strange every one who has looked at it checked said don't understand it nightmare

[stephen goodbodyParticipant @stephengoodbody77352]

Thanks Ron. It really does sound to me like there's either a tiny air leak in the water side or that there is muck is the tank that is being carrier into the injector water line.

For the air leak theory, you can try the 'wiggle' test that I mentioned earlier and see if you can get the injector to knock off. To narrow down the leak's location you may be able to pour water over sections of the suspect piping or valve and see if that temporarily cures the problem – when you pour water over the problem the water gets drawn into the pinhole and seals it temporarily. A squeeze bottle with a small pipe nozzle to direct the water flow is a good tool for the job.

For the muck theory, step one is to flush out the tank as best you can using hot water. If you haven't already done so, make up a removable filter for the injector supply pipe using fine brass mesh. It's also a good idea to use the same mesh to make up a removable filter for the tank filler hole to help prevent muck from getting into the tank in the future.

Best of luck,

Steve

[Harry WilkesParticipant @harrywilkes58467]

Hi Ron

Not an expert on injectors sorry and I think most common cause's have been covered e.g. bad joint allowing air in, pipework to small for size of injector etc, I had problems with the injector on my 3" Burrell when I purchased it and was told it was a new injector anyway I sent it off to a guy on Traction Talk Terry Baxter aka 'injector man' Terry had his own company until he sold it making injectors was on of the services he offered any I sent mine of to Terry he said it needed a service although new poorly finished cones not very good I told him to sort he did and I've never looked back maybe it's worth you joining TT and getting in touch with Terry.

H

[Ron HancockParticipant @ronhancock63652]

I will take a look and see I am having Julian Atkins look at one for me as he makes his own.

Julian did my clack valves I bought new from well known suppliers but would not work till he worked on them. Julian has been very busy for several months but feel sure once he gets time to do it will work fine.

Ron

[Ron HancockParticipant @ronhancock63652]

[Ron HancockParticipant @ronhancock63652]

Posted by Ron Hancock on 14/02/2017 17:57:27:

[Ron HancockParticipant @ronhancock63652]

Well boiler off and filled with citric acid and hot water hoping it will get rid of the green gunk inside.

whilst boiler is of going to connect axle pump fed up trying to rely on injectors so will just useone injector one hand pump and axle pump.

It would be nice to just be able to run it without water problems.

If it does not work after this will take to B P Steam see if Ben can sort loosing patence after so many problems.

Wish i new why it's getting so much green gunk inside as its only run 4 times two of them never got out of steam bay.

I think it must be the green gunk causing the problems is their anything you can put in the water to stop it please

Ron

[Ron HancockParticipant @ronhancock63652]

Posted by Ron Hancock on 13/02/2017 15:19:20:

pulling my hair out and don't have much

[Ron HancockParticipant @ronhancock63652]

Posted by duncan webster on 13/02/2017 15:44:17:

Can't help on injectors, but I wouldn't put caustic soda in a copper boiler. This website suggests it attacks both copper and brazed joints.

**LINK**

If nothing else, any spalshes will attack paint.

Edited By duncan webster on 13/02/2017 15:44:33

That was intresting to read i did wash out after with the citric acid and a lot clean water flushing with hose after.

we have a industrial chemist at our club it was his suggestion to get rid of flux being a new boiler.

Ron

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