Guy Martin – WW1 Tank – Channel 4

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Brian Sweeting on 23/11/2017 13:51:46:

Very true John but let's be honest, most weapons have to be built with a limited life span don't they?

According to my copy of Tank vs. Tank the Mk IV had a range of twenty miles before needing a track change.

Neil

[Clive HartlandParticipant @clivehartland94829]

I am not sure where you are getting data about life of military weapons, A tank barrel has a life of 100 Discarding Sabot heads but 20,000 of low velocity Hesh. The same with a field gun, standard charges 20,000 .EFC's

Most small arms barrels in the 1oo thousand's, machine guns etc. Various methods to prevent wear like chroming, stainless steel barrels and hard metal inserts at the leed.

A Royal Engineer (Bridging) is a dangerous job. My Father told me the 40mm gun barrels turned blue on the Rhine crossing.

Tank track is extremely tough, the track pins make excellent chisels. Track gets a good price at the scrappy.

No doubt someone will come up with different data.

[derek hall 1Participant @derekhall1]

This goes to the heart of the restoration debate….what is left of the original parts fitted to the Flying Scotsman for example?. It must have had new boilers, wheel treads, bearings etc during its life so what bits left are the original bits?…

Taken to the extreme then anything thats old and mechanical such as clocks watches, steam engines, traction engines, tanks and even …..(myford lathes haha !), should not be used as any "repair" renders that artifact unoriginal.

Is it important or not to have as much original "material" still part of the "artifact", be it tank or traction engine?, or is it just the name e.g. "Flying Scotsman" thats important?

Regards to all

Del

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

Nigel Grestley runs, Mallard doesn't (often). H4 isn't set going (often). I would say there is a direct correlation between the historical significance of an object and how often it's use is permitted. If you have a replica or similar that would increase the desire to keep the historic object as a static exhibit.

Just a thought.

Martin

[davebParticipant @daveb17630]

Posted by derek hall 1 on 23/11/2017 16:11:41:This goes to the heart of the restoration debate….what is left of the original parts fitted to the Flying Scotsman for example?. It must have had new boilers, wheel treads, bearings etc during its life so what bits left are the original bits?…

Reminded me of grandads hammer, 5 new handles, 6 new heads.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Clive Hartland on 23/11/2017 15:56:32:

I am not sure where you are getting data about life of military weapons, A tank barrel has a life of 100 Discarding Sabot heads but 20,000 of low velocity Hesh. The same with a field gun, standard charges 20,000 .EFC's

…

No I believe that's about right. I think the source of the 20 minute lifetime was Janes. 100 rounds in 20 minutes is 5 rounds per minute.

Even in WW2 British artillery was organised as a system allowing all the guns in a division or even a corps to plaster a single target. Back then it was done by officer observers and radio and it was quite difficult to spot individual enemy guns. Firing a well camouflaged field-gun was relatively safe. Today it is only safe to shoot at unsophisticated enemies. All major armies are able to determine point of origin with fast accurate methods like radar tracking shells in flight coupled to GPS. So the life of an artillery piece depends on how quickly it attracts a response. As aircraft, drones, missiles, or artillery all have accurate coordinates to aim at the gun won't last long once it's been identified and prioritised. For the same reason, if you're going to fire a gun, it pays to maximise it's effectiveness by shooting at targets as quickly as possible. Otherwise you get blasted after a few minutes having achieved very little.

In the second Gulf War the allies inflicted huge damage on the less well equipped Iraqi's mainly because sophisticated command, control and communication coupled with accurate targeting and precision weaponry destroyed most Iraqi heavy weapons before they were able to fire.

Scary stuff. Guy's early tank must have been terrifying when it first appeared. It was just the start – the way high-intensity military effectiveness has multiplied since 1918 is horribly impressive.

Dave

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Clive Hartland on 23/11/2017 15:56:32:

Tank track is extremely tough, the track pins make excellent chisels. Track gets a good price at the scrappy.

I doubt that first generation track was as reliable as modern stuff!

Interesting to look into this.

Wikipedia says the L30 gun on the Challenger tank is chrome plated to achieve a lifetime of 200 rounds. Some suggest exceeding the barrel limit is a court martial offence.

Apparently the 88mm Flak 18 originally had a 900 round life, extended to 6,000 with things like iron bands on the ammo instead of copper.

My dad told me that battleships had sized ammunition that would be chosen according to temperate, rate of fire and barrel wear.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

On the subject of design 'life' … it's interesting to look a anti-tank weapons **LINK**

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/LAW_80

LAW 80 is a 'single use' disposable weapon … the 'spotting rifle' is engineered accordingly.

Clever stuff.

MichaelG.

[Mike PooleParticipant @mikepoole82104]

I was told that the expected duration of a modern tank battle would be 2mins. Not too much time to wear anything out, training will be the big wear factor I should think.

Mike

[vintagengineerParticipant @vintagengineer]

Battleship guns used to have bigger rounds as the barrels wore down.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 23/11/2017 19:42:16:

On the subject of design 'life' … it's interesting to look a anti-tank weapons **LINK**

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/LAW_80

LAW 80 is a 'single use' disposable weapon … the 'spotting rifle' is engineered accordingly.

Clever stuff.

MichaelG.

Apparently the Centurion used three tracer rounds from a 0.5" calibre spotting gun to achieve a 90% 1-round hit rate, much better than contemporary American optical systems.

I don't have encyclopaedic knowledge of tanks… I just read a very good book recently Tank versus Tank, Kenneth Macksey, 1988

[martin perman 1Participant @martinperman1]

Posted by daveb on 23/11/2017 17:39:37:

Posted by derek hall 1 on 23/11/2017 16:11:41:This goes to the heart of the restoration debate….what is left of the original parts fitted to the Flying Scotsman for example?. It must have had new boilers, wheel treads, bearings etc during its life so what bits left are the original bits?…

 

Reminded me of grandads hammer, 5 new handles, 6 new heads.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I restore and show Lister petrol stationary engines, pumps, generators, and what ever else Lister produced, the stationary hobby is one of the worst hobbies for rivet counters whether its colour, original parts against reproduction parts, quality of finish and I could go on and on. I like to keep my engines in their working clothes unless I do a major mechanical restoration when I will repaint, you cant please everyone so I just ignore them

 

Martin P

 

 

Edited By martin perman on 23/11/2017 21:13:05

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