Equipping a workshop

[Exmoor309Participant @exmoor309]

Hi all,

I know this question has probably been asked thousands of times, but I haven't really seen anything to help on the internet. I have 2 7 1/4" gauge locos that were bought complete, but I have never built a loco and think it is time to have a go. (I've linked a couple of photos of my locos at the bottom)

The question is – What do I really need for a workshop? I guess the basics would be;

• Lathe
• Miller(?)
• Pillar Drill
• Bench Grinder
• Selection of hand tools (files etc)

I am intending to build Doug Hewson's Y4 tank as I'm following it in EIM at the moment. He states that he built his first one with an ML7 and a pillar drill! Could anybody recommend machinary? Lathewise, I'm looking for something bigger than an ML7, something capable of swinging 10 – 12"?

**LINK**

http://sphotos-e.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/59823_478034846872_547114_n.jpg

Many thanks in advance

Callum

Edited By Exmoor309 on 08/01/2013 18:28:06

Edited By Exmoor309 on 08/01/2013 18:29:04

[Exmoor309Participant @exmoor309]

Beginner to Model Engineering!

[Jeff DaymanParticipant @jeffdayman43397]

It has been asked and answered many times, unfortunately the search function in this site is rather iffy.

Anyway here are my suggestions, just my opinions, your mileage may vary.

Lathe: ex industrial Colchester, Boxford/South Bend, Harrison, Standard Modern. (NOT Myford). 3 jaw self centreing and 4 jaw independent chucks are a must, a faceplate is a good thing to get.

Mill: Bridgeport, Taiwan-made Bridgeport clone, Tom Senior, Elliot, Rong Fu Taiwanese 9 x 20 mills (note- RF Mills with keyway in round column are rare but best, but if you can only find a round column one without keyway, you can easily modify it as I did mine with a second column to maintain alignment when moving the head) Be sure to get R8 spindle rather than Morse taper spindle.

Any imported drill press as long as there is no play in the quill when fully extended, and table is adjustable in all directions. 1/2 HP motor is about the smallest I would go for, and a 0 to 1/2" chuck capacity is useful. A smaller sub-chuck can be used for small drills if chuck will not close to 0.

Also a complete 115 pc set of fractional, number and letter drills is a good investment.

Any imported grinder will do if it will use 6" wheels without causing an earthquake. Ask to see and hear it run. If quiet, it will be fine.

Files – Nicholson make an excellent set of 6" warding / small work files. That and two 10" mill files, one for brass only (paint the tang end yellow) and one for steel and alum is a good start. Be sure to buy or make and fit handles to all files- this is not optional it is a must. Plastic are OK, wood feel better in your hand but are more money.

Centre punch, 4 and 6" squares, 6 and 12" stainless steel rules, a 6" digital caliper, 6 oz and 1 lb ballpein hammers, a wide point magic marker, a deburring tool, assorted emery cloth or sandpaper in 80, 120,220,400, 600, 1200 and 2000 grits is a good start.

Choose a thread system to work in (metric, or UNC/UNF, or BA / Whitworth) and get some good quality high speed steel taps (spiral pointed taps are best – they have a special groove that causes the chips to self-clear beautifully) and dies in various sizes. I personally like Clarkson/Osborne Blue Wizard spiral pointed HSS taps. They are the sharpest and longest lasting taps I have found. Butterfield's are as good but hard to find now. Used taps rattling around in drawers and boxes at sales are usually dull and chipped – don't be tempted the bargain prices of such rubbish – get new, get quality taps and dies. If it saves you breaking just one tap in a workpiece you have hours into, the higher cost will soon be forgotten.

Also buy some good quality cutting oil – like TapMagic – this will work wonders for parting off in the lathe and for drilling and threading. Cheap small paintbrushes or acid brushes are a good way to apply oil.

A good broom and dustpan, a hand brush for cleaning off machines, and a galvanised steel trash can with a lid are also a must for a shop that will remain pleasant to work in.

A fire extinguisher, and a smoke alarm that alarms in the shop and in the house are good investments.

JD

Edited By Jeff Dayman on 08/01/2013 19:36:33

[Exmoor309Participant @exmoor309]

Hi Jeff,

Many thanks for your reply. This is the very thing that I've been looking for!

I've been looking at buying machinery brand new, as far as I can. This way I know they haven't had any nasty accidents and have been 'bodged' back up again. Also it gives me a good standing for acquiring spare parts and accessories for the machines. I have a collection of bits and pieces (files, spanners, drill bits and such) given to me by my uncle, but at some stage they will undoubtedly wear out and I will have to replace them.

Regarding thread systems, I suppose I will have to get what the drawings require. The Y4 drawings seem to show model engineer threads mostly, but no doubt I'll require others!

Thank you once again!

Callum

[Jeff DaymanParticipant @jeffdayman43397]

Hi Callum, you are welcome, but again I mention these are only my opinions – given time I'm sure you will hear from others – maybe opposite to mine!

Re buying brand new – that is wonderful if you have the cash to do so. Are you thinking model/hobby grade Chinese imports brand new or brand new industrial lathe and mill? Bear in mind the price and quality differences between hobby grade and industrial grade machines are enormous. I have seen industrial toolroom grade 10" lathes recently at over $32,000 USD for example, in catalogues. A top quality machine for top money. On the other hand a good used Colchester 10" lathe well used but in good working condition went for $1,800 USD locally.

Many people in UK have bought Chinese made lathes from Warco, Chester, etc and have had good luck with them and very few problems. Several Warco customers have mentioned good support from Warco. Two of my friends have bought these types of Chinese lathes from North American suppliers and had major problems and poor vendor support.

What types of lathes and mills have you looked at, for features and price?

JD

[magpieParticipant @magpie]

Hi Callum, stand by for a barrage of conflicting advice from those who dont like new stuff, and those who dont like old stuff. I have only been playing at this hobby for a few years but i would recomend new stuff all the way, just be very carefull who you buy the new stuff from. !!!!!

Cheers Derek.

[Exmoor309Participant @exmoor309]

Hi Jeff,

I've been looking at a Warco WM 280V-F, which has the option for a milling attachment. I'm not sure of the capabilities of an attachment though. The Chester equivalent DB11VS is slightly cheaper and is also available with an attachment.

Milling machines, I looked at a Warco turret mill. (Provided a link as it doesn't give a model name) – http://www.warco.co.uk/milling-machines/40-vmc-turret-mill—vertical-milling-machine.html

I've not really thought about anything else yet!

Derek – many thanks for your reply also.

Callum

[Jeff DaymanParticipant @jeffdayman43397]

Hi Callum, a few comments:

-several people on the forum have mentioned good service from Warco, and their ads say they test and check each machine before delivery. (That is much better than we get in North America when buying Chinese lathes and mills)

-Warco have had speed controler circuit board troubles on some models- it has been discussed at length in the forum. Les Jones and others have helped people fix them.

-Warco 280 lathe spec sheet says 1.1kW motor – sounds OK, 746 W= 1 HP, but check the drive belt – many Chinese machines have tiny 1/4" wide ones which are pretty light for the job. Also check for play in the (very high) compound rest – if this assy is not rigid you will have problems with turning to size and with getting good finish.

-several have mentioned problems with service with Chester – (do a search before making a buying decision)

-don't get the milling kit for the lathe – these "add ons" and combination mill / lathe outfits are never rigid enough for real milling in my experience, and workpiece size will be limited, and getting your hands and tools in such a confined work area will be a pain. A separate standalone mill is the way to go if you have room for it. For real milling the VMC40 is more than up to the job – a big rigid frame on that one, by the look of it. Hope you have room for it- it is a big machine.

-many Chinese lathes have die cast zinc alloy / pot metal control levers for carriage feed and threading control. These levers can jam and not release, causing the carriage and toolholder to run into the chuck, with major damage, before operator could get the lathe stopped. The levers are also prone to breakage. If buying, ask about the metal used in the control levers, and if die cast alloy / pot metal, I would take the carriage apart and make new lever parts in steel or aluminum bar.

JD

[Exmoor309Participant @exmoor309]

Hi Jeff,

I've read about the issues on the circuit board troubles for the speed controller. At least there is a fix for it, if/when it does go.

I've not heard anything about the service at Chester, so I will try and look into it! Thanks for the heads up!

Although I'd love a VM40, I haven't got the space or funds for it! It looks like a lovely machine though!

Thanks again

Callum

[jason udallParticipant @jasonudall57142]

Afew addiions/suggesions

Power hacksaw or equivelent…

hot area…soldering etc..

Clamps …toolmakers..G..millingtable…

saftey specs

Spider repelling spray(see other thread.)

and welcome to the art—craft— whatever

Regards Jason

[SpringbokParticipant @springbok]

Hi Callum,

I hope have very deep pockets my workshop was collected over many years

Good luck
Bob

Edited By Springbok on 09/01/2013 08:45:09

[magpieParticipant @magpie]

Hi Callum. I have a Chester DB10VS lathe and a Chester Champion 20V mill. I did have a problem with the speed control on the lathe, however i collected both machines (still in unopened boxes) and the problem was there strait out of the box. I rang Chester and they sent me a new board strait away. That was a few years ago and i have had no further problems. After the old Boxford i had, both machines are a pleasure to use.

Cheers Derek.

[NJHParticipant @njh]

Hi Callum

The question really is – what is your budget for setting up the workshop? What experience do you have of metalworking and what tools do you have already? As Bob says if you are starting from scratch and want to achieve a fully equipped workshop quickly ( especially with new equipment) you will need very deep pockets.

I've been putting mine together for the last 40 or so years and the bulk of the tools are second hand – picked up along the way at shows, S/H tool shops etc. (It is very rewarding to come across just the thing you have been looking for). I've had 4 lathes in that time – all purchased second hand and each better than the one before. ( I don't make big things so my Myford is ideal and when that is too big I have a watchmakers lathe) The milling machine I bought new from Warco – round column which I don't recommend but that was the norm. when I got it. You learn to work around such deficiencies. Pillar drill – also Warco a good, solid, machine.

You can see a couple of pictures of my " Hide-Hole" in my photos. How much did all this stuff cost me? I really don't know – and I don't think I want to work it out – but it is the accumulation of a large part of my lifetimes interest ( obsession?) .

Oh my wife has just reminded me ONE of my obsessions!

Good luck

Norman

[Sandy MortonParticipant @sandymorton10620]

Not a tool but I find Tubal Cain's "Model Engineers Handbook" very useful. Currently £6.86 from Amazon so it's also affordable.

[GaryMParticipant @garym]

Posted by Jeff Dayman on 08/01/2013 19:34:29:

<snip>……… unfortunately the search function in this site is rather iffy.

…….<snip>

JD

Hi Callum

There is a huge amount of useful info on this forum but as Jeff says the search function is rubbish. I find that if you put the following text into Google with the item of interest in place of 'workshop' you will get much better results.

site:model-engineer.co.uk workshop

I've gained a lot of knowledge in my first year from the helpful folk here.

Gary

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Hi Callum

I've had one of the same Warco 280v-f lathes since they were first available which was about 4 1/2 years ago and only replaces a set of brushes and also one set of head bearings. Apart from that it has worked straight out the crate without problem doing a lot of work and what comes off it is of a high quality as those who have seen my work will agree. Also it does not have any die-cast levers. The bigger bore WM290 is another option and that comes with DRO fited.

Allow for a larger 160mm 4-jaw, live ctr, drill chuck, tailstock die holder,QCTP and some cutting tools

As for milling I would go for a separate machine as they are far more practical. I have a X3 which should cope with the size of loco you are looking at, if you can afford a bit more then a SX4 or the mill you linked to would be good.

For the mill allow for a vice, set of holddowns, collet chuck probably ER32, drill chuck (I seldom use my drill for drilling these days prefering the mill) Boring head, angle plates, parallels, etc

Drill bit wise I don't possess any letter or number drills but have 1/16-1/2" in 64ths. 1.0-6.0mm and 6-10mm both in 0.1mm steps. Milling cutters, taps & dies I would justy buy as the subject in hand demands.

J

Edited By JasonB on 09/01/2013 16:19:42

[SteveWParticipant @stevew54046]

I'd suggest a visit to Warco (for example) as being well worth the time and trouble. You can see the machines and gauge their size. I went back a second time to check with a tape as well!

I have been happy with Warco products and would judge them good value as the WM250 comes pretty complete – important if its your first machine. I decided against second-hand as I did not feel confident that I could make an informed judgement. Bit like buying your fisrt second-hand car without Dad to advise…

Best advice for milling machines is to tot up all the extras you will need when you consider purchase.

Of course there are also clubs to help and let you see things running.

Steve

[Gray62Participant @gray62]

Just to give a different slant on things, I have a Warco GH1330 lathe (bought as ex-demo direct from Warco) and gives sterling service, came with all accessories, 3 jaw, 4 jaw steadies etc.

My mill is truly overkill, a Ajax AJT4, it was bought at the right price along with a Eagle surface grinder and a Studer cylindrical grinder + tooling for all – a fleabay bargain!)

Before lashing out on new stuff, have a look on fleabay, then have a chat with your local ME clubs and see if there are people who know what they are about who can give advice/look over what you intend to purchase.

There are a lot of bargains to be had in second hand machinery and often will be a better buy than some of the new machinery available.

All that said, I am very happy with my Warco lathe, bandsaw and ancilliaries.

CB

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

Hello Exomoor. Is that a clue to your location? You should visit the Tiverton club. If elsewhere find (or ask here) your nearest club and visit even if you are not a club person and don't want to join they will still welcome you for a chat. You DO NOT have to have a lathe, a loco, or any kind of tools or experience before you go along to a club for a chat.

A bit boring but don't buy any tools until you have somewhere to use them. After the well insulated and dry shed with corrugated iron roof for long term maintenance of that dry condition you can build a bench.

Once you have a bench you can buy a bench vice, then hacksaw and some files. Then I suggest you try making the coupling hook for your loco as you will need it eventually. If you get fed up before you finish this then you know ME loco building is not for you and can convert the shed to something else with no loss.

Never buy a set of drills or a set of collets or set of lathe tools however pretty as you will never use most of them.

I'd write more but its time to go…………..

…………………………………………….to the club meeting.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Gary Marland on 09/01/2013 14:00:35:

Posted by Jeff Dayman on 08/01/2013 19:34:29:

<snip>……… unfortunately the search function in this site is rather iffy.

…….<snip>

JD

Hi Callum

There is a huge amount of useful info on this forum but as Jeff says the search function is rubbish. I find that if you put the following text into Google with the item of interest in place of 'workshop' you will get much better results.

site:model-engineer.co.uk workshop

I've gained a lot of knowledge in my first year from the helpful folk here.

Gary

Jeff and Gary,

I think we owe David Clark some credit …

There is a "shortcut" version of that Google Search on the homepage.

MichaelG.

[Exmoor309Participant @exmoor309]

Hi guys, many thanks for the replies!

A budget on machinery – I'd like to say about £1500 – 2000 for a lathe and the same for a miller. Tooling will be funded as and when. The space is not an issue, as I have a big garage where I keep my two locos at the present. My metalworking skills are very basic in the terms of manual machines. I used to program and operate CNC Wadkin Millers, but I have minimal skills of manual machines – I did those at college for basic lathe and mill work. I now work at the railway museum at Betws-Y-Coed as a driver/fitter, but I don't have any access to the machines in the workshop due to a rather large 7 1/4" 1/3 scale NGG16 garratt being built! So provisions at home are going to be made.

I plan to go to Chester towards the end of the month as it's only about 45 minutes away, but I'm also planning a trip to Warco which is in Surrey – so a bit of a drive! Bazyle – I'm from Lancashire originally, but my username Exmoor309 was my regular loco (0-4-2 tank, Jean No.309 built by Exmoor Steam Railway) at Brookside (before she went back to Exmoor for an overhaul last year – then she derailed and management sent her to the back of the shed… long story!)

The general gist I am getting, is that Warco seem a good company to deal with. I am still open to any other ideas that any of you may have.

Thanks again!

Callum

[David LittlewoodParticipant @davidlittlewood51847]

Posted by Bazyle on 09/01/2013 18:31:01:

Never buy a set of drills or a set of collets or set of lathe tools however pretty as you will never use most of them.

I mostly disagree. A set of drills will cost you less than buying them individually, and you will always find you need a size you do not have if you follow this advice. Personally I'd go for metric drills, start with 1.0-6.0 x 0.1 mm (important – don't go for the x 0.5 mm sets, the gaps are too large) as you can do almost anything with them, within that size range. For collets, perhaps the position is less definite, but I'd still recommend you go for a complete set of ER collets in the size appropriate to your machinery (usually ER25 or ER32) plus appropriate chucks.

I do agree though on the lathe tools.

David

[TerrydParticipant @terryd72465]

Hi Callum,

Jeff mentioned 'pot metal levers' on Chinese Lathes, I haven't come across these on any Chinese machine I have owned. My present lathe, a Warco WM280V-F is a well made and accurate machine, no 'pot metal' here, nor is there any on my Chinese Milling Machine, equivalent to the Warco WM18.

You will need a lot of tooling to support you machines and hand work, including good measuring equipment. A list of the latter ranges from rules through various micrometers to vernier gauges and can include vertical marking gauge, sine bar (very exotic and probably never used) dial test indicators with stands and lever dial gauges etc etc.

here is a thread about Black Holes here, in fact the whole workshop can become a black hole for money if you're not careful,

Best regards and welcome,

Terry

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

As you mention going to see Chester and Warco use the time allocation to go to a show in 10 days and see both at once plus a bunch of other stuff, even me on Saturday.

[GaryMParticipant @garym]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 09/01/2013 19:02:12:

Jeff and Gary,

I think we owe David Clark some credit …

There is a "shortcut" version of that Google Search on the homepage.

MichaelG.

Thanks for pointing that out Michael, hadn't spotted it.

Gary

[Author]

Posts