Digital verniers

[SteviegtrParticipant @steviegtr]

Sorry guys I forgot to post the other pic of it. been flat out all night on the lathe. Here you go. Also the job I was intending to do with it was very fine polishing work. I love detail & most of the coin rings being made on the youtube, mainly in the states involves copious amounts of sandpaper. Basically wrecking the fine detail that could be.

Ditty. My neighbour gave me a full bottle 13kg of butane for my garage heater & a regulator. I said how much do I owe you. Is answer was make me one of those rings. I just need to find out when he was born so I can select the right year coin. Sorry digressed again.

Steve.

[thaiguzziParticipant @thaiguzzi]

Posted by petro1head on 24/01/2020 12:00:06:

Get a Mitutoyo, excellent verniers and the battery lasts for years

Whats a battery?

A measuring instrument with a battery?

Where have i been these last decades?

For easy peasy quick 'n cheeful i use dial calipers.

For precision, the vernier calipers

for proper precision, the mics.

No batteries were harmed in this post.

[thaiguzziParticipant @thaiguzzi]

Posted by Jeff Dayman on 23/01/2020 20:00:31:

Hi Steve, Moore and Wright used to be a good name for measuring equipment 20 ish years ago. The stuff I have seen in the last few years at customers' in industry under that brand name was cheaply made badly finished far eastern rubbish. Same for Fowler and even some items from Starrett. I think firms there have bought the rights to use these old and trusted brand names and are badging their tat with the names to gain market trust.

I personally prefer Mitutoyo and have many of their older instruments, beautifully made and finished, that continue to be accurate and operate beautifully, earning their keep. Absolutely happy with those, some I have used for 35 years.

Several here though have reported there are fake Mitutoyo instruments being sold.

One 0-8" dial caliper I ordered recently was extremely roughly finished, full of gritty muck, and would not operate smoothly. It was genuine Mitutoyo, very expensive, but marked as made in Brazil (apparently by semi skilled staff not following the normal high Mitutoyo standards). I sent it back, but had to pay a 15% restocking fee to the dealer.

My recommendation would still be to buy Mitutoyo but only from a genuine Mitutoyo distributor near you, and if you are not 100 % satisfied with what you buy, send it back.

Bad measuring instruments can really steal the satisfaction and enjoyment of making things. I hope you can find some good ones and leave the tat behind.

Edited By Jeff Dayman on 23/01/2020 20:02:08

A couple of points;

First paragraph – other way round, Established Western brands inc Starrett have a cheaper line where stuff is made in the "Far East". They are the ones gladly outsourcing to Chinese factories.

Shareholders love it, the end user not so much.

You can buy a Starrett dial caliper for $40 or $300, the choice is yours.

Re, Mitutoyo made in Brazil. A Mit factory making the same Mit item with THE SAME PART NO. for worldwide sale should have the same quality. There is no such thing as "semi skilled staff not following normal Mit high stds". It does'nt happen, and Mitutoyo would not let it happen.

You either got a dud (rare) or a fake (common).

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Steviegtr on 25/01/2020 23:38:27:

Sorry guys I forgot to post the other pic of it. been flat out all night on the lathe. Here you go. Also the job I was intending to do with it was very fine polishing work. I love detail & most of the coin rings being made on the youtube, mainly in the states involves copious amounts of sandpaper. Basically wrecking the fine detail that could be.

[…]

.

Go for it, Steve

It looks very much like the attachable stage for the M15 …

**LINK**

https://dlib.york.ac.uk/yodl/app/home/search?query=m15&pageSize=96

… or maybe the M14/2

MichaelG.

.

Edit: Drifting even further from the ‘digital’ aspect of this thread: You may be interested to see the focus mechanism that was used on that series of stands

https://worldwide.espacenet.com/patent/search?q=pn%3DGB877813A

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 26/01/2020 05:19:41

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Mick B1 on 25/01/2020 14:36:38:

Posted by Brian G on 25/01/2020 12:45:48:

Posted by Mick B1 on 25/01/2020 12:23:28:

but the tape measure value doesn't make much sense against that. Unless it's in Arshins and Vershoks or summat…

Could it be a patternmaker's shrink rule?

Brian G

I suspect optical distortion – the exterior jaws of the caliper measure about 30 1/2 mm on my screen, whilst the inside nibs appear under 28, yet if the scales in inches the reading is undoubtedly in 128ths as there are 8 of these in a 16th, and there are 16 divisions between the 1 and the 2.

I've seen 128th Verniers often at junk tool stalls on flea markets etc., which IMO is the best place for 'em. I certainly can't imagine anyone ever actually using one, except maybe to mark up carpentry timber in whole inches or major fractions.

Oh, and setting conundrums to see if folk actually understand how to read such a scale.

Well spotted, the tape measure is in Chinese Inches, of which there are 30 to the metre.

I bought the Vernier thinking no batteries and reasonable accuracy would be useful for quick checking, like telling the difference between ⅛" and 3mm brass rod, and confirming twist drill sizes. In practice, my vernier is rarely used because it's so much faster and safer to read a digital display. Even cheapo digital calipers are more reliable.

The inch scale is graduated in 1/128"s . I find it difficult to decode, and once done 1/128th of an inch seems particularly useless! For woodwork, imperial sizes down to 1/16" are jolly useful. For rough hand metalwork 1/64" works most of the time. For precision work my lathe and mill both do better than 1/128", getting to about a thou without much bother. As a metric worker, measuring to 1/128" doesn't do much for me, and I suspect most imperial workshops are unfamiliar with it too. In metric mode, the caliper reads to 0.05mm, also not particularly useful.

The metric vernier on the same instrument is both harder and easier! On the up side, everything being in tenths requires fewer mental gymnastics. On the downside, while the imperial vernier scale has only 8 graduations to eyeball, the metric scale has 20! I squint at it!

After mastering the usual feel needed to get repeatable measurements from any caliper, vernier caliper disadvantages include:

1. Answers may be in an inconvenient fractional form, or the scale being tricky to read.
2. Though it's spot on, mine cant be re-zeroed.
3. Accuracy depends on two physical scales being applied correctly to the instrument, with lines spaced accurately and bold enough to read without being thick enough to be ambiguous.
4. Results depend on the users eyesight and him avoiding parallax errors carefully.
5. Decoding a vernier takes ages and is error prone. The scales have to be scanned for the nearest match and then interpreted correctly. I suppose people get better with practice but I make lots of mistakes.

Early theodolites relied on beautifully made vernier scales viewed through a small microscope. As errors were likely and most surveys took at least several hundred readings, the amount of record keeping and error checking done was extraordinary, both in the field and back in the office. A 3 or 4 man job. Two to carry the equipment and set up poles & chains etc, the surveyor, and an assistant taking notes and protecting the theodolite from rain, snow and wind. Amazing what chaps achieved in the past with simple tools and extreme patience.

Dave

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

Early theodolites relied on beautifully made vernier scales viewed through a small microscope.

Accuracy was/could be incredible. There is a story of a project to map something in India (I think). They travelled around 1500 miles in a loop and were amazed/disgruntled/perplexed as to why they were about 150 yards (it may even have been only 15 yards!) out when they arrived back at their departure point.

It transpired that they had been ‘fooled’ by a large mountain, some way distant from them part round the trek, which had altered the Earth’s local gravitational pull on the theodolite – leading to not setting up the theodolite exactly vertical with the centre line of the planet – and that neatly accounted for the ‘error’ found.

Edited By not done it yet on 26/01/2020 12:55:53

[Mick B1Participant @mickb1]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 26/01/2020 12:08:31:

…

1. Results depend on the users eyesight and him avoiding parallax errors carefully.
2. Decoding a vernier takes ages and is error prone. The scales have to be scanned for the nearest match and then interpreted correctly. I suppose people get better with practice but I make lots of mistakes.

…

Dave

1. The only Verniers I've ever bought or considered buying are those where both the fixed and moving scales are flat and level together. The Mitutoyo I still have is like that. Anything else introduces parallax risks, and there's really no excuse for designing a Vernier that carries those. Of course, a lot of the 128th Verniers are not only bevelled and/or stepped, but also stamped out using 1950s can-opener technology. I think they belong in the "Nothing Works And Nobody Cares" bucket.

2. I don't *think* I've ever made a serious error misreading a Vernier. I've made far more misreading drawings, especially the datum position.

[SteviegtrParticipant @steviegtr]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 26/01/2020 04:56:53:

Posted by Steviegtr on 25/01/2020 23:38:27:

Sorry guys I forgot to post the other pic of it. been flat out all night on the lathe. Here you go. Also the job I was intending to do with it was very fine polishing work. I love detail & most of the coin rings being made on the youtube, mainly in the states involves copious amounts of sandpaper. Basically wrecking the fine detail that could be.

[…]

.

Go for it, Steve

It looks very much like the attachable stage for the M15 …

**LINK**

https://dlib.york.ac.uk/yodl/app/home/search?query=m15&pageSize=96

… or maybe the M14/2

MichaelG.

.

Edit: Drifting even further from the ‘digital’ aspect of this thread: You may be interested to see the focus mechanism that was used on that series of stands

**LINK**

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 26/01/2020 05:19:41

It looks similar apart from the fixing bracket. Some more pics of it showing the great little lead screw & dinky rack.

[Gerard O’TooleParticipant @gerardotoole60348]

You had really good buys Steve. well done

[old martParticipant @oldmart]

I still have two pairs of Mitutoyo Vernier calipers, they don't seem to make them any more. See if you can identify the improvement over the ordinary type.

[Mick B1Participant @mickb1]

Posted by old mart on 27/01/2020 19:50:56:

I still have two pairs of Mitutoyo Vernier calipers, they don't seem to make them any more. See if you can identify the improvement over the ordinary type.

 

 

I've told you once!

Mine looks the same, but a bit more worn. The flat and level fixed and sliding scales prevent parallax errors better than others I've seen.

My Mitutoyo Vernier Height Gauge has a bevelled sliding scale, but at least it mates very well as it meets the fixed one. There's also a mounted magnifier the reduces risk of reading error.

Edited By Mick B1 on 27/01/2020 20:07:42

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by thaiguzzi on 26/01/2020 03:51:05:

Posted by Jeff Dayman on 23/01/2020 20:00:31:

Hi Steve, Moore and Wright used to be a good name for measuring equipment 20 ish years ago. The stuff I have seen in the last few years at customers' in industry under that brand name was cheaply made badly finished far eastern rubbish. Same for Fowler and even some items from Starrett. I think firms there have bought the rights to use these old and trusted brand names and are badging their tat with the names to gain market trust.

I personally prefer Mitutoyo and have many of their older instruments, beautifully made and finished, that continue to be accurate and operate beautifully, earning their keep. Absolutely happy with those, some I have used for 35 years.

Several here though have reported there are fake Mitutoyo instruments being sold.

One 0-8" dial caliper I ordered recently was extremely roughly finished, full of gritty muck, and would not operate smoothly. It was genuine Mitutoyo, very expensive, but marked as made in Brazil (apparently by semi skilled staff not following the normal high Mitutoyo standards). I sent it back, but had to pay a 15% restocking fee to the dealer.

My recommendation would still be to buy Mitutoyo but only from a genuine Mitutoyo distributor near you, and if you are not 100 % satisfied with what you buy, send it back.

Bad measuring instruments can really steal the satisfaction and enjoyment of making things. I hope you can find some good ones and leave the tat behind.

Edited By Jeff Dayman on 23/01/2020 20:02:08

A couple of points;

First paragraph – other way round, Established Western brands inc Starrett have a cheaper line where stuff is made in the "Far East". They are the ones gladly outsourcing to Chinese factories.

Shareholders love it, the end user not so much.

You can buy a Starrett dial caliper for $40 or $300, the choice is yours.

Re, Mitutoyo made in Brazil. A Mit factory making the same Mit item with THE SAME PART NO. for worldwide sale should have the same quality. There is no such thing as "semi skilled staff not following normal Mit high stds". It does'nt happen, and Mitutoyo would not let it happen.

You either got a dud (rare) or a fake (common).

Just make sure you get one made in their Chinese factory.

[old martParticipant @oldmart]

Got it in one, Mick, the parallax free Mitutoyo's have prismatic slideways and were more expensive than standard ones, that's probably why they are no longer listed. The one in the picture is 6", 150mm and has a spring loaded thumb lock, and the other 5", 127mm one has a locking fine adjuster like most height gauges. 

Mitutoyo have a facility in Andover, Hampshire UK, I bought a circuit board for a digital mic from them a few years ago.

Edited By old mart on 27/01/2020 21:44:43

Edited By old mart on 27/01/2020 21:46:38

[SteviegtrParticipant @steviegtr]

Well if the digital CALIPERS are not perfect then I bought some genuine old Moore & wright Micrometer's at weekend. Look new but very old. Reason for posting on here was because today I went to an old friends in Doncaster to take back a MT2 keyless chuck, that I bought off him at the booty.

The shaft was bent & must have been in a lathe crash. He gave me another one which is great. £10 It is a Albright which I think is German.

I have not been to his house before but have known him for many years. Oh my god, his garage is just overwhelmed by everything Lathe & milling. He has like 20 of everything.

He does booties so he can prop up his Classic bike builds. I bought this from him for an Ayrton Senna. Was it a bargain or are these no good.

Please advise as I have never seen one of these before & have 2 Analogue ones from Cronos which seem a bit notchy in use. I apologise for the picture being side on. Edit. I got the mag mount & bits + the gauge. He threw in these inserts too because I set up an inverter that had been on his mill for 2 years, waiting for a mate to set up for him.

Edited By Steviegtr on 28/01/2020 00:59:28

[Mick B1Participant @mickb1]

Posted by old mart on 27/01/2020 21:42:59:

Got it in one, Mick, the parallax free Mitutoyo's have prismatic slideways and were more expensive than standard ones, that's probably why they are no longer listed.

…

Well, no actually, I didn't spot that was the reason they could lay the sliding scale flat to the fixed one. I had a Polish Vernier that was similarly made and I didn't notice it as the enabling feature there either, so thanks for pointing it out.

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

The Moore and Wright combination set I bought a few years back was definitely sub standard in so far as the square 'wasn't' by some considerable amount. Whilst I bought it for the protractor in the main it was still somewhat dissapointing even if it was cheap. Subsequently I was donated a proper set from the old days.

I do think we are something wide of the mark with our expectations in some cases and mistakenly compare modern items made for the 'hobby' market with professional kit made for the tool rooms of yester-year. Often the brand name is the same so I guess it's not surprising.

I buy reasonable quality milling cutters at reasonable prices for home use which are nothing like the quality not to mention the price of the cutters that our machine shop in the Lab use on their Hass CNC mills.

You pay your money and take your choice largely, however I don't think any of us would like to see the demise of the 'home/hobby market' equipment as few of us could afford to pay professional prices for everything we use.

Model Engineering skills through the years have been as much about compensating for the shortcommings of our affordable machines and equipment as straightforward engineering skills.

I would finally add that qualty measuring kit is top of the list of desireability.

regards Martin

[Mick B1Participant @mickb1]

Posted by Martin Kyte on 28/01/2020 09:23:46:

…

I would finally add that qualty measuring kit is top of the list of desireability.

regards Martin

Even so, price is not necessarily a guide to quality. The Polish Vernier I mentioned above I bought when I was still at the Government Training Centre on an allowance about 2/3 of an entry-level centre-lathe turners wage. It was less than half the price of a Rabone Chesterman Vernier from the same shop, and it was better. That was in 1975, and it lasted over 30 years before I retired it due to some careless damage. People talked about subsidies to industry in Iron Curtain countries, but there was no excuse for British makers not to take advantage of improved design features that made reading easier and more certain.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Martin Kyte on 28/01/2020 09:23:46:.

…

I would finally add that qualty measuring kit is top of the list of desireability.

regards Martin

Not in my workshop! But I've done expensive training that addressed concepts like 'quality' and 'desirability' and found them both severely wanting. Done for effect, but we were told to take a baseball bat to any employee who justified a particular tool by using the word 'quality'! Quality raises instant suspicion, much as the police are taught about Trade Number Plates, 'Red on White, Stop on Sight.'

Left to their own devices employees without budget responsibilities have a strong tendency to waste money on expensive tools because a friend liked it, or it was hot 40 years ago, or they think it's Made in England, or it confers bragging rights, or the adverts feature a sexy lady, or the tool is nice to use. And sometimes men ask for expensive gear blissfully unaware the owner is considering outsourcing the whole operation because his employees are driving him into bankruptcy.

Desirable requirements also need close attention. Sometimes, like choosing the colour of a car, they cost nothing. More often they add to costs making it necessary to decide just how important they really are. Someone with long legs and car-crash injuries might pay extra to travel Business Class when a short person would be perfectly comfortable in Cattle-Class!

Instead it's better to express need in terms of 'Fitness for Purpose' and 'Value for Money' assessed against lists of Essential Requirements, and weighted Desirable Requirements. Often the first attempt will list Essentials that are demoted to Desirables, and Desirables that are really essential. The process is revealing: it's not done specifically with cost-cutting in mind, it's done to select the most cost effective tool for the purpose. The process can lead to dramatic changes of tack – it led most Armies to reduce Main Battle Tanks in favour of more Attack Helicopters. In all cases, an answer is required to the question 'How long does it take to recover the cost of this investment?' If the answer is 'never', the business is better off doing something else entirely. Including demolishing the factory and putting a car park on the site.

Home workshop purchases don't follow the same rules because we use tools for pleasure, which I find a jolly good reason for spending my money. However, as home workshops rarely need top-end equipment to get acceptable results, I don't think it's a good idea to suggest 'quality measuring kit is top of the list of desirability', without putting it in context.

I wonder how many newcomers have been scared off our wonderful hobby by chaps carelessly pushing them over budget by advising they must buy only the very best tools? In my experience, cheap and nasty are best avoided, but most inexpensive tools work well enough. They may feel rough, take longer to manipulate and be slightly untrustworthy, but they usually get the job done.

Not perfect, they cost time rather than being outright showstoppers. As saving time is a hobby workshop desirable, only the owner can decide how to weight it. Professional time is very expensive making it easy for them to justify buying reliable tools. Hobby time is often very cheap, in which case there's much less need to buy top-end tools.

What's "Fit for Purpose" in a genteel hobby workshop may not be "Fit for Purpose" when time is money. Likewise, what's "Value for Money" in a professional context, might not be in a hobby workshop.

There are two types of outright foolishness, wasting big money unnecessarily on bling tooling, and wasting big money due to being an over-optimistic cheapskate. I simply suggest purchasers have a think about what they want of their tools before buying anything! For making a start, the middle way has done me proud. So far I've not found it essential to buy any tool worth boasting about!

Dave

 

 

 

 

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 28/01/2020 12:55:39

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

Have to agree with SOD on this. The new tool I have bought in the last year or so, that I use most regularly is the left handed digi caliper for about 23-24 quid.

If I need dead-on measurements, I dig out the digi micrometer, but for ease of measurement, in situ on the lathe, that left handed caliper is so much easier to use. I don’ need top class instruments but I do demand reliable, consistent results from my measuring kit.

Like the parcel that arrived two eight minutes ago. The Sovol SV01. I don’t need it but I wanted it and have got it. It will never make money but will be another toy to play with – and my wife already wants 24 little objects made for her sister, who arrives in about a month’s time. All the same and on thingyverse or somewhere. My first steps in cnc, so off to open the box. BFN.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 28/01/2020 12:52:24:

[…]

I don't think it's a good idea to suggest 'quality measuring kit is top of the list of desirability', without putting it in context.

[…]

.

Nearly eight years later I get an opportunity to re-post this:

This seems a good time to share my favourite quotation.

MichaelG.

______________________________________________

Peace of mind isn't at all superficial to technical work. It's the whole thing. That which produces it is good work and that which destroys it is bad work. The specs, the measuring instruments, the quality control, the final check-out, these are all means toward the end of satisfying the peace of mind of those responsible for the work. What really counts in the end is their peace of mind, nothing else. The reason for this is that peace of mind is a prerequisite for a perception of that Quality which is beyond romantic Quality and classic Quality and which unites the two, and which must accompany the work as it proceeds. The way to see what looks good and understand the reasons it looks good, and to be at one with this goodness as the work proceeds, is to cultivate an inner quietness, a peace of mind so that goodness can shine through.

Robert M Pirsig – Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance [An enquiry into values]

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 08/04/2012 21:32:21

[Enough!Participant @enough]

Posted by not done it yet on 28/01/2020 16:14:24:

…….I don’t need it but I wanted it and have got it.

Right on !

[old martParticipant @oldmart]

Regarding genuine Mitutoyo, I was the only person in the factory who had their combination square set in the calibration system, and getting that approval was high praise for the set, made in Japan. I gave Brian, who did the certification of the employees measuring tools, my Rabone 12" rule to look at, and he said that it was a fine rule, but NBG as a straight edge.

I have two Mitutoyo surface gauges, one Japanese, and the other Brazilian, and they are equally well made.

[Mick B1Participant @mickb1]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 28/01/2020 17:52:13:

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 28/01/2020 12:52:24:

[…]

I don't think it's a good idea to suggest 'quality measuring kit is top of the list of desirability', without putting it in context.

[…]

.

Nearly eight years later I get an opportunity to re-post this:

This seems a good time to share my favourite quotation.

MichaelG.

______________________________________________

Peace of mind isn't at all superficial to technical work. It's the whole thing. That which produces it is good work and that which destroys it is bad work. The specs, the measuring instruments, the quality control, the final check-out, these are all means toward the end of satisfying the peace of mind of those responsible for the work. What really counts in the end is their peace of mind, nothing else. The reason for this is that peace of mind is a prerequisite for a perception of that Quality which is beyond romantic Quality and classic Quality and which unites the two, and which must accompany the work as it proceeds. The way to see what looks good and understand the reasons it looks good, and to be at one with this goodness as the work proceeds, is to cultivate an inner quietness, a peace of mind so that goodness can shine through.

Robert M Pirsig – Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance [An enquiry into values]

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 08/04/2012 21:32:21

Ah, 'Zen And The Art Of' – I read that in my mid-20s when I still had a motorbike, and thought it was a Really Important Book.

I lent it to my dad, an academic very much in touch with 'the high country of the mind', and he liked it too, but his take on it was as a psychological thriller where the philosophy represented the progressively-distorted musings of a clever man declining into mental illness – which undoubtedly the Phaedrus character did, though IIRC he may have recovered at least partially.

I still don't know which of us was nearer the truth….

[SteviegtrParticipant @steviegtr]

I see the point in that. Tonight at our biker café meet I took some rings I had made & everyone thought they were beautiful. I do too, but they are no where near as good a quality or accuracy that I want. Same point. Not that I would need some of the equipment that some of you have. At my level I would not be able to read that accurately anyway. Strive for perfection.

Steve.

[Author]

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