Cheap carbide inserts – where’s the market?

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

Ok, I just watched another of his vids – making a drift from a cold chisel. Annealed, machined, heated, oil quenched -but no mention, whatsoever, of tempering the final product. Job only nearly done and potentially dangerous to the unknowing…

Edited By not done it yet on 30/11/2018 13:53:55

[GrottoParticipant @grotto]

I like the cheap carbide inserts because they are cheap. As an unskilled beginner I've chipped quite a few inserts inserts. I’d rather destroy cheap ones than expensive ones (have done both). I’m starting to get better at with practice, and maybe when my skill levels are higher I’ll start using the expensive ones I’ve got in the drawer.

It would be tempting to blame poor results on cheap inserts, but find they're lasting longer and performing better with practice.

[Neil LickfoldParticipant @neillickfold44316]

The largest cause of insert early failure and chipping is turning to the centre. So where ever possible, just use a centre drill to remove the very centre, unless the part does need the flat face.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Problem with that is the biggest cause of ctr drill failure is drilling into an uneven surface so always best to face the part first, spotting drill will fair better on a sawn or uneven surface.

I don't often get one chip but when I do it is usually me doing something silly like winding the tool into stationary work.

Edited By JasonB on 30/11/2018 19:58:29

[Robin GrahamParticipant @robingraham42208]

Thanks for all your comments! Interesting reading, I'm obviously not the only heretic experimenting with carbide inserts on a smallish lathe in a home workshop.

My original question was about the economics of producing and selling these tools. I don't know exactly how the things are made, but I imagine it is a pretty specialised process, and I would be surprised if any are manufactured specifically for the (tiny?) hobby market – particularly if they simply don't work under the conditions we work under. No repeat business. JasonB's suggestion that they are overspill from low-end Far Eastern manufacture makes sense to me. I have seen some pretty awful finishes on Far Eastern metalwork, but didn't put two and two together.

Bob Stevenson – thanks for the pointer to the cheap tooling that works for you and your fellow horologists. I shall follow that up – if you've had positive experiences with these tools, that's a useful recommendation. It's a pity that the guy who made the video made some mistakes and perhaps isn't the best advocate for the tools. Not your fault.

My own flirtation with carbide began with my first lathe, a Proxxon PD400, similar specs to a Chinese mini-lathe but a less rigid saddle/crosslide arrangement. I wasn't getting a good finish on aluminium with HSS so I tried a CCGT insert tool which worked well. Then I tried it on steel – I knew no better – and it worked. That was probably only a material heresy. Now I know I'm not supposed to use carbide, but willfully persist with my evil experiments, my sin escalates to formal heresy, with peril of excommunication and perdition.

Thanks again for comments,Robin

Edited By Robin Graham on 30/11/2018 21:35:19

Edited By Robin Graham on 30/11/2018 21:35:45

Edited By Robin Graham on 30/11/2018 21:46:05

Edited By Robin Graham on 30/11/2018 22:39:53

[larry phelan 1Participant @larryphelan1]

I have cut 16mm many times using HSS for inside and outside threads. What,s the problem ? Why use inserts ?

I know I ,m good,but not that good [I still have problems parting off,like many others ]

I got fed up messing around with inserts,this type and that,and went back to HSS

Give it a try,you might be surprised.

[Mick B1Participant @mickb1]

I've got two carbide insert tools, by Glanze, that Chronos or somebody was flogging cheap maybe 5 years ago. One uses diamond-shaped inserts, the other nearly square ones – I only get two edges per insert. I bought some cheap Far Eastern inserts and they seem as good as the original tips that came with the tool.

I only use them for roughing cuts when I want to get as much metal off as I can, and for that they work OK within the limitations of the WM250V they're running on.

Other than that, I'm on HSS because, even with a cheap Chinese bench grinder, I can make pretty much whatever I want with it.

So yes, the OP's question is pertinent – nobody's gonna make much of a living out of folk like me who spend a tenner every couple of years on carbide.

[Martin WhittleParticipant @martinwhittle67411]

Posted by Mick B1 on 01/12/2018 20:13:56:nobody's gonna make much of a living out of folk like me who spend a tenner every couple of years on carbide.

Agreed: but a tenner can give you 10 inserts which is 40 corners, which will give you quite a lot lot of 'bang for your buck' My turning seemed a bit rough the other day, so I replaced the insert – and despite previous experience, I was still again astonished at how the the replacement tool just peeled the metal away to reveal the excellent finish within! I seem to be generally converting to the CCGT tips for most materials, and replacing when things get worse. High cutting speeds work well!

Martin

Edited By Martin Whittle on 01/12/2018 20:49:53

Edited for spelling

Edited By Martin Whittle on 01/12/2018 21:03:11

[Douglas JohnstonParticipant @douglasjohnston98463]

The sharp polished tips meant for cutting aluminium work extremely well on my small lathe (Myford Speed 10 ). They will cut aluminium, soft and hard steel, stainless steel, plastic and almost everything I throw at them. I was lucky enough to buy a whole lot cheap from ebay a while back and rarely use anything else now. They are fragile and you have to take care with them, but they do work a treat.

Doug

[Roger Williams 2Participant @rogerwilliams2]

Could someone put a link to "the" video please.

[Grindstone CowboyParticipant @grindstonecowboy]

Here you are, Roger **LINK**

[thaiguzziParticipant @thaiguzzi]

Posted by Rob Rimmer on 01/12/2018 23:45:24:

Here you are, Roger **LINK**

Aaaah. Him.

He has done some interesting vids in the past, but i get the impression he is sponsored by Bang Good or whatever the name of the company is. Everything is great and everything is super cheap. Two things that normally don't go in the same sentence.

Bang Good. Sounds like Porn film company to me……….

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by thaiguzzi on 02/12/2018 05:23:18:

Bang Good. Sounds like Porn film company to me……….

.

You may be disappointed : **LINK**

https://blog.banggood.com/banggood-wiki-55786.html

MichaelG.

[VicParticipant @vic]

Bob, I’ve sent you a PM.

[Dave HalfordParticipant @davehalford22513]

Everyones a critic.

I think we have to remember that this video in really about showing these tools actually do cut metal rather than how to use the lathe properly, hence the lack of a finish cut + he's hand feeding so ridges are no surprise. I confess I did flinch a bit to hear the poor lathe slow down so much

On the link did anyone notice the downwards deflection of the second drill on the initial bite?

Would that be the drill ground off centre?

I think the fact that Bob Stevenson saw the video, saw the removal / feed rate and ignored the other issues, bought them to try and found he could make clocks with them shows the versatility of the tips given carbides reputation of needing monster feeds and speeds to work properly should be applauded. I'm certain the finishes that he gets on his clock parts is indeed mirror, else he would need to power his clocks with a 1/2 hp motor and not a main spring.

[Chris TriceParticipant @christrice43267]

Posted by Robin Graham on 30/11/2018 21:34:19:

I don't know exactly how the things are made, but I imagine it is a pretty specialised process, and I would be surprised if any are manufactured specifically for the (tiny?) hobby market – particularly if they simply don't work under the conditions we work under.

[Robin GrahamParticipant @robingraham42208]

Thanks Chris – interesting video. And no Gregg Wallace in sight, which is a good thing*.

I guess that reinforces my idea that no one is going to invest in such a complex and specialised process just to satisfy the hobby market. It looks like Sandvik take QC quite seriously, but I can believe that there are factories churning these things out with less attention to detail to satisfy an industrial market which doesn't need that degree of refinement. Maybe these are the cheap inserts we see on the internet. I dunno!

Robin.

*Ref is to BBC2 'Inside the Factory' if you haven't seen it – potentially interesting, but spoiled for me by by Wallace's presentation – he never gets to the interesting questions! The one on poppadums was quite thought provoking though – handmade and sundried in India, then fried over here  robotically – strange world. How hard is it to fry a poppadum?

R.

Edited By Robin Graham on 02/12/2018 22:50:45

[David Standing 1Participant @davidstanding1]

Posted by Robin Graham on 02/12/2018 22:49:56:

Thanks Chris – interesting video. And no Gregg Wallace in sight, which is a good thing*.

I guess that reinforces my idea that no one is going to invest in such a complex and specialised process just to satisfy the hobby market. It looks like Sandvik take QC quite seriously, but I can believe that there are factories churning these things out with less attention to detail to satisfy an industrial market which doesn't need that degree of refinement. Maybe these are the cheap inserts we see on the internet. I dunno!

Robin.

*Ref is to BBC2 'Inside the Factory' if you haven't seen it – potentially interesting, but spoiled for me by by Wallace's presentation – he never gets to the interesting questions! The one on poppadums was quite thought provoking though – handmade and sundried in India, then fried over here robotically – strange world. How hard is it to fry a poppadum?

R.

Edited By Robin Graham on 02/12/2018 22:50:45

The poppadums are probably not fried in advance because the oil in them may go rancid before they are eaten.

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