Hi Kinlet

We both know the risks and have had to pick up the pieces when deaths have followed the work of poor professionals and amatuers who have not got away with it that time.

I suspect that we both know why the electricity board did away with testing and connection of new work, cost.

The detractors on here will nver have to see what we have seen, but will not listen, as they always know best.

Ian

I was pulling your leg – you had no idea – yet the reason was so blooming obvious! The lights were wired in series. Made no mention of the lamps….not that I'm that bothered. Point is our resident expert didn't have a clue! Time to dust off your books lol.

Edited By MAC on 04/03/2012 10:29:07

There seems to be an obsession with red cable on this thread. the most common form of colour blindness is an inability to recognise the difference between red and green. Blue can be recognised by all but those with total colour blindness. To complicate matters those with red blindness see red as black. Many with colour blindness do not realise unless they are tested.

Around 7 to 8% of men have colour blindness so a good proportion of electricians are liable to suffer from the condition. The blue brown yellow/green colour scheme was adopted for flexes in the early 1970s.

No obsession with red – just trying to make the point as clear as I could for those who couldn't figure it out for themselves! If someone is that colour blind they cannot distinguish red from black then I suggest that they don't do electrical wiring.

In poor light the difference in modern colours are harder to determine than the old red/black I find, or I could just be getting old!

New regulations are certainly well intentioned. Who wouldn't want to see electrical installations being made safer?

I dislike that the implementation of Part-P is so dependant on paperwork and certificates, and whilst avenues for competent DIY work do legally exist, I have found that such avenues can be made tortuous by local authority building control policies.

The approach of simply refering all work to a qualified person seems somewhat blinkered to me. Efforts to restrict the availablity of materials to professionals is simply protectionism.

There will always be people who want to do their own work, either because they enjoy it, because it is more convenient for them, or because of financial pressures. Refering everyone to a professional is futile and will be ignored in many cases, I believe it is better that good quality, freely available information should exist about how to do a job safely.

I have a concern for future generations, who will grow up never having fitted a three pin plug; there probably won't be DIY books containing detailed explanations and pictures of correct domestic wiring for much longer – so how will future generations be able to instinctively spot something that needs attention? How can we expect our children to become interested enough to want to pursue a career in technology, if we don't let them get some hands-on basic practice?

A few things to observe

1 OP stated they knew that swaping the phases changed drection but not WHY

there followed a good description /explaination…better than I could offer without , phasors ,vectors and lead /lag discuions

2 someone expessed their opion that in effect if you dont know what you are doing then leave it to a proffesional

there followed " I have seen xyz dodgy wiring from abc proffessional / diyer etc" and it all got abit tense

I too have seen shocking[ no pun intended] premise wiring.

Enough so that I don't even assume earth is earthy.

3 since this topic is way off topic.PAT [testing]

chinese IEC leads live and neutral swaped, earth WIRE missing

[part code for Euro three core] dummy green wire no copper

other leads..iron/steel substituted for copper core

fuses made to look right but in effect printed steel…the preverbel 6" nail

Lap top PC power supplies that make casing of laptop run at 300 to 400 V above earth

[these actualy meet spec…US market psu's]

Do I have apoint? Only one

Be careful..that brand new house could still be lethal as might the new 42" plasma.

peace

I must admit to wiring my own workshops and any house wiring, only with the lowly help of a hnd level electrical engineering course. My father was a service engineer for years having worked for the docks in london, the royal mint and many firms that installed letter folding machines. I was bought up running 3ph, rewiring our own machines as running a small joinery firm we couldent afford to have a machine shut down for a day till joe bloggs sparks comes who wants to knock the job out in 15mins and bill you for 4hrs work. We repaired our own machines because we had service engineers out at £400 a day who left our machinery in a state that didnt work and was so far out of alignment it was beyond a joke.

Iv also worked on a building site where I cut through a live cable somebody had run through a doorframe attached to a newel post the door frame was actually nailed over the cable. Luckily nobody was injured but it beggars the point who put it there?

Lets be frank on points there will always be dodgy people and cautious people having a piece of paper just means you know the risks not that you care what they are or are going to make sure they are abated. Not offering those in need of advice the relavant information for there own safety and to allow them to understand there limits or the dangers of there actions is far worse then telling them the truth. Mr hall your experiences must have been life altering but getting a snotty and presumptive attitude will not stop those intent on doing there own works from doing so. You have only alienated them from your wealth of experience and advice which I believe is completely counter productive to your point.

The more you make out a subject is taboo and beyond the comprehesion of the layman the more you foster a false sense of understanding when said layman figures out how to wire a plug, then a motor or a machine. Then runs simple lighting and sockets ect. Its the same rediculos attitude the government took to drugs education in the 80's and look where that got us. People dont like there intelligence insulted wether it founded or not. And by doing so you will only alienate people not educate them.

This forum is by far the most intelligent and senseable Iv had the pleasure to come across its an oasis of sense in a world of stupidity. Model engineering by its nature is time consuming, pains taking and technical not areas appealing to those lacking in grey matter. A well placed piece of advice will save many more lives then jumping on the qualifications pedistal.

Exactly Michael, as I was saying people think they know what there on about until they get shown what they dont.

There is one point that does seem to have been overlooked. That is that those people who have certificates, who tout themselves as experts, do not necessarily know what they are doing. Or if they do, they sometimes display an appalling lack of understanding or care, witness thegas-fitter recently convicted of man-slaughter.

I have been in the unfortunate position of being on the receiving end of some of these so-called experts, so much so that these days, I simply do not trust anyone until their work has been shown to be satisfactory. This seems to apply in all trades. Maybe I've been unlucky. Maybe my standards are higher than others. Which does lead me onto….

I am not a qualified electrician: I am, or was since I'm now retired, a qualified telecoms technician/engineer, and as such I do know a small amount about electricity and electronics. Unfortunately, I have come across two domestic installations which in my opinion were dangerous, indeed on one installation where my wife had persuaded me against my better judgement to attend, I changed the faulty fuse, walked out, and refused to attend when the fuse blew again within a few days. One reason for my refusal was because the lightswitch by the only external door to the house was missing its cover plate thus exposing bare terminals. The local electricity board attended and simply covered the switch with insulation tape. In my opinion, that installation should have had the main fuses withdrawn until it had been brought up to an acceptable standard. Simply bodge covering this switch did not necessarily force the owner to upgrade.

For people to say that no-one other than a qualified individual should be allowed to work on whatever it is, smacks of protectionism, even union demarcation rules, of the worst kind. It is true that the ever increasing complexity of modern equipment, think today's car as against 50 years ago, does mean that there is less scope for the amateur, however, I would submit that a lot of household systems, electric wiring, telephone wiring, gas and water, due to their simplicity are eminently suitable for a responsible amateur to work on – provided the relevant rules are followed. Unfortunately, not every amateur is responsible. Which is why we have restrictions on what we can do. Nevertheless, I do believe there is scope for the amateur to DIY, even if it does mean paying good money to Building Control to have your work checked.

Regards,

Peter G. Shaw