when is a precision vice not a precision vice>?

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Posted by alan smith 6 on 25/01/2013 13:48:56:

Welcome to the group John,

'As usual comments out of context, what the heck have the prices of your precision vises got to do with the price of beer! I bet that they are specialised vises for CNC.

How can it be out of context if the title is "Precision Machine Vise " ?

As you are such a large fan of Chinese kit and defend it to the end, why haven`t you bought Chinese instead of paying through the nose for products from Eastern Europe where probably your vises originate from, as does your beloved TOS.

I own AND USE two Chinese lathes and four chinese milling machines

Do you happen to know how much a Chinese worker in one of those hobby machine factory earns? It must be around 100 dollars a month. At that level of salary, surely the Chinese should be able to equal your precision vises for about a twentieth of the price.

Yes I do, last time I was over there I spoke to quite a few of the shop floor workers thru an interpretor and I have no reason to doubt the replies I recieved. I was also told other figures like the cost of living, food etc and even through the wages are lower than here they still roughly the same purchasing power

Alan

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Posted by alan smith 6 on 25/01/2013 18:38:32:

Donald, I love your posts, you get to the heart of the matter so clearly and quickly. There is something that we are all dying to know, who is Laurel and who is Hardy?

Alan

This one.

[DustyParticipant @dusty]

I have watched this thread unravel, the point that appears to be foremost is the fact that people have an unrealistic expectation of the quality and precision of the item they are buying. It would be unrealistic to pay for a Trabant and expect to get a Rolls Royce. Quality and precision cost, if you pay several hundred pounds for a vice and it is rubbish, then you send it back, but if you spend a few pounds on it and it is rubbish so be it. In this life you get what you pay for, use common sense when reading descriptions of an items quality, you may be lucky but don't bank on it.

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

True story, it's about a vise but not a precision one.

Many years ago I spotted a band new vise on Graham Engineerings stall at a steam rally, remember Graham Engineering? so that dates this purchase as they have been gone 10 or 12 years.

They had this tilting vise more suitable for a drill press than a mill, the type is still sold today with the stamped out pressed steel side supports. Picked one up and looked at it and it looked decent as regards no headache or big gaps anywhere. this thing was marked up at £10

Biggest fault with it was the thread. it was a square thread about 14mm diameter and chrome plated. The screw threaded into the cast end of the vise but instaed of it being 1/2 thread, 1/2 gap as a square thread should be this one was 1/4 thread, 3/4 gap.

Bought it and took it back to the low loader, one of our guys looked at it and said, "Have you seen this thread it's worn out already ?"

My reply was yes but I can't buy a set of casting for £10 and when it strips, as it will, I'll make a new nut and thread.

However I have been proved wrong as it's still in the same condition today as I bought it, the chrome is still intact on the thread and it lives on the small surface grinder for doing special lathe tools, slotting and broaching tools.

Point is there was no need to send this back as I saw it before I bought it, but I recognised the shortfall and worked out that it was "Fit for purpose" because at that time it was "Fit for purse"

[alan smith 6Participant @alansmith6]

John, Are you Laurel or Hardy?

Alan.

Ps. Good likeness but I don`t pick my nose!

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

You will need to workit out but I'll give you a clue.

I'm the one that works to tight tolerances but don't ask because I won't tell you.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Jo on 25/01/2013 18:10:05:

Jason: For comparison, my Colchester Master calibration figures

Spindle run out = 0.0001"

Runout at the end of a 12" bar worst case vertical/horizontal = 0.0001"

Tally round run out = 0.00008" = 0.002mm

I cannot machine to those tolerances, I wish I could.

Jo

Jo,

What a magnificent lathe that is !

I remember when my Dad set-up the Workshop for "Nuclear Physics" at Lancaster University in 1966. Top of his shopping list was Colchester Master 2500, the long bed version, with the gap bed option. [probably one of the first]

That gap was very useful when I damaged the circlip groove for the bearing in my Ariel Arrow front wheel … we just mounted the whole wheel [complete with tyre] and tidied up the groove.

MichaelG.

[jason udallParticipant @jasonudall57142]

back to the OP For a second..

"when is a precision vice not a precision vice>?"…

The sorts of work holding mentioned above at £2.5K..are consistent and readily set for the job in hand..and in principle pay for themselves in reduced " floor to floor" time ie: less setting time..

OK now lets consider a rigid vice the jaws of which close tightly but not consistently parallel..the work needs checking tapping and tweaking…to set square…our user has the satisfaction of a job well done.soon the novelty will wear off but for now the faff (trouble/time taken ) can be put up with..

Later our user finds their time more precious and invests in either a "better" vice or "fixes" the current one…..

thus runs the argument.

Anyway

3 points

1 if vice CANNOT hold securely then its a menace.

2 just what is meant by precision in this context ?

3 does the vice cost less than the materials used to make it.? (or your own)

Yes number 3 does happen…never usually a good sign

for my money

when is a precision vice not a precision vice>?

when its a kit to make one..taa boom

[David ColwillParticipant @davidcolwill19261]

An interesting post that will never reach any conclusion. Most of the discussion has been by people with experience of using this type of equipment when in actual fact it is the beginner that I feel sorry for. He orders a milling vice but perhaps doesn't have the experience to know that it is not up to scratch.

Personally I like being able to buy Chinese goods, although I do realise that they are on average 20 to 30 percent more than you think due to the fact that you do get a higher reject rate than normal. When I end up with the inevitable pup, I take it on the chin and don't let it bother me knowing that I have still saved overall.

As for the standards it won't happen anytime soon so yes we can all flare up and get agitated or we can try to be more sensible about it.

Perhaps a way forward is to have more articles about buying and checking this sort of equipment and also ways of improving it. Then there is the possibility that certain of the suppliers could implement a voluntary set of standards on certain items in their range ( even charging more for them) so that beginners would be able to buy with more confidence. Ketan has already done this in the past with the preparation service. and perhaps he could look at this for smaller items.

I don't think anyone realistically expects £2500 worth of vice for £50 so perhaps a little more realism is required.

Dave

[Brian WarwickParticipant @brianwarwick88192]

Posted by David Colwill on 26/01/2013 07:14:02:

1. An interesting post that will never reach any conclusion
2. Most of the discussion has been by people with experience of using this type of equipment when in actual fact it is the beginner that I feel sorry for. He orders a milling vice but perhaps doesn't have the experience to know that it is not up to scratch.
3. Personally I like being able to buy Chinese goods, although I do realise that they are on average 20 to 30 percent more than you think due to the fact that you do get a higher reject rate than normal. When I end up with the inevitable pup, I take it on the chin and don't let it bother me knowing that I have still saved overall.
4. As for the standards it won't happen anytime soon so yes we can all flare up and get agitated or we can try to be more sensible about it.
5. Perhaps a way forward is to have more articles about buying and checking this sort of equipment and also ways of improving it. Then there is the possibility that certain of the suppliers could implement a voluntary set of standards on certain items in their range ( even charging more for them) so that beginners would be able to buy with more confidence. Ketan has already done this in the past with the preparation service. and perhaps he could look at this for smaller items.
6. I don't think anyone realistically expects £2500 worth of vice for £50 so perhaps a little more realism is required.

Dave

Well said but I would like to put my two penneth in please

1. I could not agree more, especially when people go off subject and just want to slate each other rather than having a sensible conversation and discussing the subject.

2. Again I agree but as a beginner I don't want to have to dig though a load of mud slinging to find the the relevant facts

3. I agree but surely if an item is sub standard to the DEALER DESCRIPTION or SPECIFICATION then back it goes regardless to where its made

4. Sorry but I believe they are already in place as there are companies in china & India producing goods to world wide standards, its simply that people are purchasing goods that do not meet these standards and the price they pay reflects this BUT more importantly the specification of these goods do not meet the standards either, its simple if you are miss-sold return it if you buy crap knowing its crap accept it.

5. I cant comment on any articles as I am new here but I have found with most articles they tend to give a bit of a one sided opinion where as a post where people share there experiences (keeping to the point) is much more informative as you can form your own opinion on a much wider viewpoint. But based on another post I read on this site this would not be allowed as any comment relating to a product would be seen as slander no matter how true it was and the site could bee sued, I don't understand this argument as its not the view of MEW but the individuals and this is clearly demonstrated on other sites.

6. Sadly some people do, and yes a lot more realism is needed.

 

Edited By Brian Warwick on 26/01/2013 09:31:31

[LambtonParticipant @lambton]

Brian Warwick has summed things up very well indeed. Nothing else really needs to be said on this topic.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by fizzy on 24/01/2013 00:32:54:

machine vice….just bought one from reputable dealer…looks nice…every single bolt is onlt hand tight…3 thou play in jaws..had to machine it down, now very good…but should we have to????

Edited By fizzy on 24/01/2013 00:33:28

Fizzy,

Duly chastened by Jason Udall's post, I will try to answer your specific questions

Please forgive the pedantry … for therein lie the answers

1. In the thread title you ask "when is a precision vice not a precision vice?" … In itself, that is unanswerable; because the phrase "precision vice" is open to very wide interpretation. Precision is a word that needs some "quantifier" before it really means anything. [it's rather like asking "when is a red flag not a red flag" … if I wanted a particular colour, then I would look for a specific Pantone shade, not "red".] However; noting that "Precision" is about repeatability and consistency, rather than accuracy [there is a very good Wikipedia page on this], it is probably fair to say that a "precision vice" is not a "precision vice" when its jaws are loose.

2. The answer to your closing question "…. but should we have to????" really depends upon the circumstances of the purchase. I have already said that "precision vice" is almost meaningless without some contractual definition [i.e. a specification]. (a) If you simply buy something that is offered, then the specification was effectively defined by the seller and you should beware. (b) If you take a more proactive "procurement" approach, then you define the specification and invite seller to bid against that. [then, if seller does not deliver to your specification, he is contractually bound to rectify.]

In the case of your specific purchase … you could probably have insisted that the seller tightened-up the screws, or exchanged the vice, but [without a specification] that's about it.

MichaelG.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Lambton on 26/01/2013 10:49:17:

Brian Warwick has summed things up very well indeed. Nothing else really needs to be said on this topic.

Sorry Lambton,

Missed your conclusion … I was busy writing

MichaelG.

[alan smith 6Participant @alansmith6]

I think that we are lucky to have two level headed people such as Lambton and our new boy Brian, suddenly the thread is all wrapped up, finito. No need for Dave to do what he does best.

I don`t think that the main issues have been addressed as they should be and they never will be on a forum. I would like to enlarge on this but realise that it`s futile so am going to have a lie down and count sheep.

Alan

[michael mParticipant @michaelm]

It's probably true that any further discussion on this topic will not reach a conclusion that pleases all but could you possibly think back to the fact that that it was initiated by a beginner. I remember clearly, although it was many years ago, when I first started and with no engineering knowledge or ability but inspired by a visit to a model engineering exhibition I subsequently bought a cheap old lathe and a stand for my electric pistol drill, drawings and castings for a loco and made a start. I ran into all the problems that beginners can; sharpening tools, setting up jobs, filing, marking out and achieving a good finish. I bought an (expensive) edmill which I quickly destroyed and generally progress was abysmal. Now in that sort of situation, comments on the forum from those who've spent fifty years man and boy in a tool room or who's work is manufacturing parts to a few microns for the aerospace industry may, although establishing their credentials as super engineers, not be helpful to a beginner. What he needs is constructive advice rather than dogmatic opinions and word play. Use of the word "precision" is a case in point.Yes, it's not readily qualified but we would reasonably and intuitively assume it means at least fit for purpose. Incidentally the dictionary defines it as "accuracy" and then defines accurate as—- " careful, precise,in exact conformity with a standard or truth." So the laymen or beginner has an expectation, which is intuitive and reasonable. OK, you've worked fifty years man and boy in a metrology lab but try and think back to the beginner even though you may never have been one. I agree with other posters that the fundamental problem with Chinese equipment is not a Chinese inability to produce quality but a response to a demand for unrealistic prices from the retailers who set (seemingly) no standards. If you're lucky your purchase will be fine, if it'a duffer, then though it may possibly be re-engineered by a competent engineer it's not something a beginner may want or be able to get involved with. Some people are very pleased with their Chinese equipment and in many cases with good reason but I'm reminded of the story of the gentleman who'd bought a rather wretched East European car in the 1970's. When asked if he was happy with it he replied " I've got to be, I bought it" Coming back to our beginner, and I'm using the word as a generic term rather than a specific poster, when he does eventually complete his project he may well be reuctant to post about it or to post photographs for fear of criticism of his workmanship, his spelling or his punctuation. He may not be aware that though most modelling organisations include a few bullies (and the associated mob instinct) along with a few very experienced critics the majority of members will gladly help and give gentle and constructive advice where required.

Michael

[MICHAEL WILLIAMSParticipant @michaelwilliams41215]

Just out of curiosity what should someone like me do about giving opinions and answering questions :

(1) Waffle , dither , ramble and talk rubbish ?

(2) Answer questions and venure opinions as far as possible correctly and clearly ?

(3) Keep off the site altogether in case I upset the status quo on opinions or offend some person unknown ?

Michael Williams

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by MICHAEL WILLIAMS on 26/01/2013 13:55:57:

Just out of curiosity what should someone like me do about giving opinions and answering questions :

(1) Waffle , dither , ramble and talk rubbish ?

(2) Answer questions and venure opinions as far as possible correctly and clearly ?

(3) Keep off the site altogether in case I upset the status quo on opinions or offend some person unknown ?

Michael Williams

Michael,

For me … definitely option (2)

But I would still appreciate a reply to my PMs of October 2012

MichaelG.

[Francis SykesParticipant @francissykes95134]

Firstly I'll apologies in advance, I think the conclusions reached on teh original question are pretty much correct – for me I've distilled it down to:

1) You pretty much get what you pay for, so either:

2) Make up the difference in purchase price to the performance that you require by putting in the time to modify it/fettle it. You'll balance this based on how much you price your time at vs money you're willing to spend

3) Don't bother – if it clamps strongly enough, just set the job up properly every time with suitable measuring equipment.

Interestingly for me, I think it's No.3 that I see most commonly by the professionals I know – I guess perhaps because the hammering these items take in industrial use (not series production by the way, more making up of one off spares/reverse engineering)

Alan, I feel the need to give you some feedback on your view of equipment manufactured from the East. Your views seem apparent for someone who has only a very small proportion of knowledge over the Chinese manufacturing and engineering capability, range and culture, I'd suggest you bear this in mind when making your suppositions and assumptions relating to sourcing of items over there.

[Sub MandrelParticipant @submandrel]

What frustrates me about these discussions is that people forget that what is being shared are opinions, not facts. This is a forum for discussion, not a board of enquiry and we don't have a learned judge to weigh it all up and write a 2,000 page report at the cost of several millions from the public purse.

It wouild be a golden moment if we could reach consensus, but the best thing we can do is respect beginners and reduce their confusion by making it clear that what we express are opinions based on personal experience, preference and our own backgrounds.

The following is a purely personal view:

Machine tools have always covered a huge price range – orders of magnitude of difference for lathes with, on paper, the same basic specification and size. Even the Myford range was meant to be an 'affordable' model engineer's lathe when it came out. Other lathes like the round-bed Drummond, Adept, EW, Flexspeed were built down to a price and included a few headline grabbing features at the expense of corners cut elsewhere. They were the 'chinese imports' of their day.

I bough a chinese mini lathe – a return at Machine Mart as (a) I could afford it and (b) it was small enough to move about on my own, not needing to be permanently fixed down. This was in 1999 – long before many improvements in these machijes and the supply chain.

I have made many modifications to this lathe – none of these were to correct an inaccuracy or fault, with the exception of the working of the top slide, which allowed the index to bind until I amended it.

Some report the inadequacy of the motors and their control boards. Even the latter is probably my fault – working the lathe far too hard.

I cleaned out my SC chuck which is now some 14 years old a month or two ago, and despite all my abuse it is once again as accurate as any non-micro adjustable sc chuck could claim to be. Using a (German) dti the taper, and even the outer end of the mandrel bore are within a ten-thousandth of concentric. Yes I had to do some adjusting, but after that all the slides were smooth and without tight spots. The cross and top slides are accurately ground all over.

The latest mini lathes have brushless motors, QR tailstocks and other modifications.

My X2 mill, another early one, had some rigidity and gearbox issues, but no basic accuracy ones. The issues have been addressed by suppliers for more recent machines too.

It seems to me that the basic criticism of imports is that customers and suppliers don't make any complaints or feedback to the manufacturers. this is untrue, as anyone who has followed the evolution of these machine tools over the years can see.

So yes, these tools are made to a price, but they are far more than a kit of parts.

Neil

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi, I think Neil has summed things up faily well. If we were offered things in an afordable price range that my farther had, I would think all these things we can get now are much better quality than the good ole British stuff back then. It didn't stop my farther making things that were accurate and true.

Regards Nick.

[Roderick JenkinsParticipant @roderickjenkins93242]

According to MeasuringWorth .com the average UK annual salary in 1947 was slightly under £300. In 2010 it was £23,500. About 28x increase. In late 1946 Garners of Sheffield were offering stocktaking offers in ME;

4" jaw sc chuck – £3.95. From Arceuro today- £70. Garners price today from above – £308

1/2" drill chuck – £1.32. Arc – £13.50. Garners today – £103

31/2" swivelling machine vice -£7.55. Arc – £67. Garners today £589

A universal dividing head without gears was £74.75 in 1946, that's £5830 at today's prices

Guys, you've never had it so good.

Rod

[magpieParticipant @magpie]

I said it in another thread, and i will say it again, i was allways told A POOR WORKMAN ALLWAYS BLAMES HIS TOOLS. I have mostly found it true so far.

Cheers Derek.

P.S. Nothing wrong with any of the 5 chinese items i have ( lathe, mill, multiformer, belt sander, 6X4 bandsaw, and  X1L mini mill.

Edited By magpie on 26/01/2013 22:26:48

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Rod.

How much were Garners CNC machines ?

[SpringbokParticipant @springbok]

Well said Stub I think we can now close down

Bob

[David ColwillParticipant @davidcolwill19261]

Posted by John Stevenson on 27/01/2013 01:34:23:

Rod.

How much were Garners CNC machines ?

Chinese or British?

[Author]

Posts