Warco experience – WM18B

[Dave Sawdon 1Participant @davesawdon1]

[Dave Sawdon 1Participant @davesawdon1]

Some thoughts having recently received a WM18B with DRO, stand, and (700 lb) wheeled trolley.

A visit to the Warco showroom and subsequent communication was all well handled by friendly staff. I made a couple of changes to the order but they dealt with those well. The pallet was delivered by a helpful chap on the promised day.

Challenge #1 was opening the crate. Warco had lifted the top of the crate off the base but re-attached it using the original nails – life would have been much easier if they'd used screws.

Challenge #2 was assembling the trolley without instructions and only a small diagram to work from – it's easy with hindsight but needed some head scratching.

Challenge #3 was attaching the base to the trolley. It's a general purpose trolley so does not have any provision for bolting the base to it. I improvised using some unused bars from the trolley, but there should really be an adapter or coupling kit specifically for the task – more about the trolley later.

Challenge #4 was getting the mill on the stand single-handed. The mill was was bolted to the bottom of the crate, which had been strapped to a pallet. Unfortunately the pallet was much wider than the crate base and would not fit between the legs of the hired engine crane. Eventually I set-up boards across the top of the crane legs and slid (much crowbar action) the crate base from the pallet to the boards and could then lift the mill with the crane. Slightly scary moments getting the mill high enough but it worked-out. The correct size bolts for the mill-stand attachment are not supplied so I used the smaller bolts that had been used to attach the mill to the crate (why don't they use the correct size?)

Observation #1: the trolley is very poorly designed. It's useful to be able to move the thing around but the feet are attached to plastic arms which flex easily, so the mill wobbles when it should be sat firmly on the floor. It would be so much better to have the fixed feet rigidly attached to the frame and the wheels on a jacking system because a little wobble doesn't matter on the rare times the thing has to be moved. I'm waiting for a response to Warco on my feedback that the thing is not fit for purpose.

Observation #2: the bracket holding the safety guard had broken – it looks very flimsy but they say a failure is unusual. A replacement is in the post.

Observation #3: the on/off and stop switches were loose. Having removed the panel, the on/off switch had been incorrectly attached (and the connections were not tight so one wire fell out) and the stop switch nut hadn't been fully tightened – neither of these had any provision to stop them rotating, such as a keyhole or hot-melt. As a professional engineer it was easy to fix, but it shouldn't have been necessary. Inside the panel it looked like a good DIY assembly, rather than a production unit.

Observation #4: Initially, neither the R8 reducer nor the collet chuck would enter the spindle because the guide pin in the spindle was larger than the slots in the chuck and reducer. The slot in the drilling arbor (that was supplied fitted in the mill) is much wider than the slots in the reducer and chuck.

Observation #5: I'm surprised that Warco haven't corrected the Chinglish in the manuals, especially for the Sino DRO. It wouldn't take very long to do it and would hugely improve the customer experience. Also, the mill manual refers to WM18B on the front page but thereafter has WMD30VB, which gives the game away – I'm surprised they don't want to customise the manual. Has anyone got an understandable version of the SDS2-3MS instructions?

I haven't checked the mechanical accuracy or set-up (partly because I haven't yet educated myself on how to do it – all advice gratefully received) but it's been used for a simple milling job and was enjoyable to use. It would have been used for some drilling if they hadn't sent the wrong chuck (an exchange is in the post).

 

Edited By Dave Sawdon 1 on 02/11/2020 19:46:28

Edited By Dave Sawdon 1 on 02/11/2020 19:47:36

[SteviegtrParticipant @steviegtr]

Oh dear. Lets just hope once you get settled in with it , you will see the good things about the machine. It seems to be quite a popular milling machine.

Steve.

[Stuart Smith 5Participant @stuartsmith5]

Is this the manual you are looking for:

**LINK**

[Dave Sawdon 1Participant @davesawdon1]

That's the same version that came with the machine (but thanks for the link because it's useful to have a downloaded copy). Am I the only one that finds this manual virtually unintelligible, or is it down to my lack of familiarity with DROs?

[Bill PhinnParticipant @billphinn90025]

Dave, I bought the non-belt-drive version of the WM18 earlier this year.

In anticipation of its arrival I made a wheeled dolly out of 4×2 CLS with a big enough gap underneath for my engine hoist's legs to comfortably pass under. It made moving and positioning the mill for the final lift very easy.

When the delivery truck arrived I wheeled the dolly out into the road and the very obliging delivery man (Walker's Transport) offloaded the crate directly on to the dolly. I can't comment on the Warco trolley, but I sensed it wouldn't be adequate for my needs.

The Chinglish in the manuals is there for two reasons:

1. Professional Chinese-English written translation done either by native English speakers with very good Chinese or, second best, by native Chinese with significantly better than very good English [vital when the target language is not your mother tongue] doesn't come cheap. In my experience of travelling etc. to China only the Chinese central government can be consistently relied on to produce accurate and idiomatic English translations, i.e. to hire the very best translators.

2. The machinery manufacturers themselves rarely place much value on [i.e. justify the cost of] good translations for their manuals, even if they understand what it takes to produce one, which is seldom.

[Dave Sawdon 1Participant @davesawdon1]

From a few web searches it looks like an earlier version of the trolley had fixed feet and jacking wheels – in principle that's a far better design and I wonder why it was changed. I need to decide whether to ditch the trolley entirely, modify the trolley, or make something. If only I had a skyhook to lift the mill on

The Chinglish is surprising for two reasons:

• the major markets are (presumably) either China or the English-speaking world – so getting a good English translation would improve the customer experience and help marketing
• it would not take much effort for a major reseller (such as Warco) to produce good English-language manuals that are branded – once again improving the customer experience, helping with marketing and differentiation. The current approach seems rather short-sighted and lacking in imagination.

[Cabinet EnforcerParticipant @cabinetenforcer]

Someone on a US forum had a go at re-writing the chinglish manual for the SINO a few years ago, on the pages I looked at there wasn't any difference…

Once you have the hang of the major functions you will be fine, there are plenty of youtube videos covering the subject, ToT and blondihacks have both done one:

**LINK**

**LINK**

Suppliers of industrial machine tools sell you a support network, with the machine thrown in for free. Hobby machine suppliers sell you a hunk of cast iron and hope you don't come back. If you want fancy manuals and other such handholding it would cost an amount that the market would never bear, same goes for the build quality.

Given how easy it would be to produce even slightly better manuals, I honestly think that UK suppliers prefer things that way as it deters the terminally stupid.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Dave Sawdon 1 on 02/11/2020 19:43:37:

…

I haven't checked the mechanical accuracy or set-up (partly because I haven't yet educated myself on how to do it – all advice gratefully received) …

…

My advice is not to start by checking accuracy. Instead see how it cuts and ask the forum for advice if there's trouble. Measure and correct later, after some experience is gained.

The reason is high-accuracy measurement is difficult and error prone in itself – it's all too easy for an innocent beginner to confuse himself and the forum with unfortunate measurements. Quite a few examples of new owners posting measurements inconsistent with their other measurements and worrying about trivia whilst missing important detail. So there's a certain scepticism about straight-to-measurement posts because they sometimes confuse actual machine faults with operator inexperience, measuring tools of uncertain accuracy, and poor technique. It's hard to measure consistently better than 0.02mm, even with good equipment.

Also easier for the forum to help with 'help, my fly cutter is wonky' rather than 'this machine will be useless because I took some iffy measurements'. Find find out how well the machine does what's wanted, or not, by cutting metal. Accurate measurement is useful for diagnosing actual faults, not for identifying them in the first place. Remember it's a down to a price hobby mill not a tool-room jig borer costing thirty times more!

Dave

Dave

[Bill PhinnParticipant @billphinn90025]

Posted by Dave Sawdon 1 on 03/11/2020 11:46:00:

The Chinglish is surprising for two reasons:

• it would not take much effort for a major reseller (such as Warco) to produce good English-language manuals

Dave, as someone who has done both paid and unpaid Chinese-English translation work and is reasonably well informed, if anyone is, of the general standards in Chinese to English translation even mainstream translation agencies are capable of, trust me, it would.

[Bo’sunParticipant @bosun58570]

Hi Dave,

You're not alone, my WM250's manual was several iterations out of date, with an incomplete and inaccurate parts list. Not that the manual was overly useful anyway. Much was obvious, and some important bits not mentioned.

Having said all that, I couldn't fault Warco's customer service. I just wish they'd be a bit more honest with their advertising and check what they're selling. It's left a bit of a sour taste I'm afraid.

[Dave Sawdon 1Participant @davesawdon1]

C Enforcer: thanks for those links. I'm likely to have some specific questions on the DRO (currently trying to fathom the sections on segmented error compensation, finding mechanical origin, and linear error compensation … maybe a good sleep will help because the Chinglish looks all Greek to me at the moment), is this the best place to ask or is there a specific thread that I haven't spotted for DRO questions?

SO Duffer: I can recognise good advice when I see it, but I do need (*want*) to check the DRO set-up and to tram the head.

Bill P: The basic translation has already been done so it just needs a native English speaker, who has a knowledge of how to use the item, to correct the grammar and word choice so that the manual reads correctly; the machine manual would take a couple of hours and the DRO manual might take a day. That's a small investment to improve the company image and customer experience. If I was reselling these things I would not dream of sending out documentation that was poor, partly unintelligible, and unbranded.

Bo'sun: I agree about customer service. Rob sent replacement parts without quibble, these arrived today and have already been fitted. I've now found that the "micro feed dial" rubs on the panel when downfeeding and so looses its reference – 'not sure what the cause or cure are yet.

I've been experimenting with the trolley. With wooden wedges hammered underneath the edges the rocking is virtually (but not adequately) eliminated so I think this confirms my suspicion that it's the trolley feet that are at fault. I'm going to attach some 3mm box section so I can fit a couple of jacking machine feet and see whether that can be a permanent solution.

[David Scott 4Participant @davidscott4]

I have one of the now older ones.

Yes a lovely machine which the owner can improve… Yes the first thing I made for mine is a forward backwards stops. Some of Warcos machines have them fitted as standard but many do not? They have them for the front and I use mine constantly. And some days it is on all the time.

I have DROs to fit but haven't got round to them yet. I would love some ideas on fitting them the best way!

Very similar to certain Locomotives on enquiry we are told that notes may have to be followed to understand the drawings? NO I am also building Ken Swans Jessie which does not need notes. Worst sets of drawings to date are Asia By Reeves and Twin Sisters by GLR. So bad I am redrawing them to 1 1/16" to the foot scale.

David.

[ChrisHParticipant @chrish]

I agree the Warco manuals are absolute rubbish if the one I got with my 'Economy' mill/drill from them a few years ago is anything to go by. The Chinglish manual actually made absolutely no sense at all in several places and no way could I even hazard a guess what they were trying to say.

Given that this was a machine that Warco had been selling for 30 years it beggars belief that the company could not have had one of their engineers sit down and write a manual in English that English speakers could understand; it would not take a competent person that long to do and the resultant in customer satisfaction would quickly repay them I am sure.

Grizzly did it in the USA, and thank goodness they did and made them available to download for free; that way I got a manual that was understandable and clearly written, even if parts of it were for the USA market/conditions and thus were irrelevant.

I like Warco and buy their stuff, but this in my opinion is a serious failing of theirs.

Chris

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

I agree with Chris H, It's not translation that the manuals need, it is writing manuals for the market you are selling in. These can be based on the "chinglish" ones. They should have input from somone who knows the machine and how to use it. Note that instructions are part of the CE compliance so should be correct and fit for purpose.

The state of the wiring is more worrying. As described it was a fire hazard and possible shock hazard. It is the importers/suppliers responsibility to ensure the machines are safe. Clearly whatever system is in place is failing.
I suggest you check and inspect the earth connections if you have not already done do so. There have been reports of issues including paint under erth connections.

Robert G8RPI.

Edited By Robert Atkinson 2 on 04/11/2020 20:04:12

[Dave Sawdon 1Participant @davesawdon1]

Well, adding two machine feet on box section stiffeners didn't stop the wobble so the machine is standing on the feet, the trolley is going back to Warco, and I'll have to devise some sort of jacking trolley if (when!) I need to move it.

The cure for the "micro feed dial" rubbing on the panel and loosing its reference was to remove the handle and worm shaft (retained by a pin in the side of the head that can be pulled-out with a 4mm screw) and to drill a new dimple for the handle grub screw to run into, a few mm nearer the end of the shaft than the original one. Suggested by one of the helpful chaps at Warco, and trivial to do … but it really shouldn't be necessary.

Now I'm finding that the keyless chuck needs a spanner and a strap wrench to undo it … 'not sure that this is an improvement over using a chuck key 😐

ChrisH mentioned the Grizzly manuals. The trick seems to be to look through their product range for something that looks a bit like the machine of interest, the manual can then be downloaded from the product page.

Robert A2: thanks for the hint about earthing. Low current continuity is OK but I'll do a physical check when I have time.

[larry phelan 1Participant @larryphelan1]

Dont know why you guys are complaining about the "Manuals " ??

I find them very entertaining to read, now that my local library is closed. Some of the best fiction I ever came across !

As long as you dont need to depend on them or worse still, understand them, they are fine for light reading.

The one that came with my lathe seems to have been intended for some other machine altogether and the one for my rotary table is in a class of its own !

Might be worth having a word with your local Take away, and yes, I agree, there is No excuse for suppliers failing to include a simple-to-understand manual. They might consider the Market they are selling to. I do not accept that it would cost that much extra, how many different ones would there have to be ?

[Steve Dunthorne 1Participant @stevedunthorne1]

Dave S and Bill P, I am looking at the WM18 and WM18B right now, and have approached Roger at Warco only a couple days ago. I would welcome any input from you both as to pros and cons of the belt version / gear version – I see the spec suggests the older gear version can actually run down to 50 rpm spindle speed, whereas the belt version 100 rpm. On the other hand the newer version has a brushless DC motor so should be very smooth.

If I may, let me tell you where I am on this journey; I bought what was called the Warco ZX-16 mill in 2003 and it serves me well to this day. However, its design uses a round tube for the z axis support rather than the rectangular dovetails the newer machines are all using these days and, when cutting steel and pushing the limits a little bit, it is impossible to lock the head sufficiently rigidly and avoid some swing about the tube axis. In fact using a Boring tool is all but impossible, it just will not stay steady and cut a round hole! So, I want to upgrade within a certain budget and thought the '18' size with an R8 arbor would be a bit more rigid and take me forward.

Reading the issues Dave S has had, I do not feel particularly impressed, but I have bought a few machines from Warco (lathe, mill, bandsaw, sanding machine) and they all need a bit of TLC and 'adjustment' to bring them up to scratch it seems to me, and that is the price we pay for getting a fundamentally high potential machine at a price which we want to pay. And presumably, as we are the sort of people who would wish to buy this sort of machine, the TLC required ought not be beyond us. Still, it is annoying.

However, the wiring is another issue which particularly rankles. I bought a WM250 lathe in 2007 and suddenly this year (2020) it stopped working. The NVR switch would not 'hold' on. I bought a replacement switch for £20 on Amazon and installing it, only then did one of the wires to the NVR switch just fall out of its connector, having NEVER been crimped, just placed in the connector and left. It ran for 13 years, and little did I realise that all the time I had used the machine it was hanging in the balance that it would just switch off AT ANY MOMENT. It shouldn't be this way. That is poor quality control. And, as others have mentioned regarding Earth wires, potentially dangerous.

 

Anyway, back to my WM18 / WM18B dilemma…

Edited By Steve Dunthorne 1 on 11/11/2020 14:39:47

[mechman48Participant @mechman48]

… ChrisH mentioned the Grizzly manuals. The trick seems to be to look through their product range for something that looks a bit like the machine of interest, the manual can then be downloaded from the product page…

Look for the Grizzly 0704… It's as near as matters to your machine, also the WM16. Don't concern yourself over accuracy at the moment, get used to it, it will need a few tweaks to get it running good & safe. I have a WM 16 mill & found the similar probs with the wiring, the Emer. stop was loose, having a look in the back I found a spring clip on the bottom of the enclosure & deducted that this was to fit into a slot on the Emer. button assembly which then locked it into position.. has been secure since. I had a look around & all the rest looked ok, mind you I'm not aux fait with electric control systems so didn't go poking around with a screw driver, but so far every thing works as it should.

I removed the plastic guard as it was as much use as the proverbial choc' fire guard, making sure the micro switch was in the closed position, & made a full length enclosure guard out of acrylic, much better access. BE CAREFUL! don't go poking around in control circuits as there are capcitors in there & are waiting to give you a belt!. Those who are really up on electrickery always say you can short out capictors to discharge stored voltage… that is if you can recognise them; I aint one of them !

I also have a WM 250V-F lathe, & had a few tweaks to do to it as well; Change wheel guard micro switch tab was bent & for the life of me I couldn't figure out why it wouldn't start, after checking all the fuses & listening to hear the chuck guard micro switch clicking on & off, making sure that the Emer.stop button had not locked in I finally found it right at the bottom at the back, a quick twist & hey presto! machine worked. I made a few mods on mine over the past 7 years & so far all is well, a nice machine now.. fingers & toe's x'd..

Enjoy

George.

Typo's corrected

 

Edited By mechman48 on 11/11/2020 15:52:42

[Dave Sawdon 1Participant @davesawdon1]

Steve D: I'm not really qualified to comment from a position of deep knowledge. Although I had a Tom Senior mill for many years I didn't do a lot with it and my only formal training was a small amount of time on a Bridgeport during graduate induction (almost a lifetime ago) and a short course at Axminster. I have an English lathe (a Holbrook) and this is my first experience of Chinese machine tools.
I chose the 18B because I wanted the longer stroke and higher speed so I could use it for woodwork as well as metalwork, and to replace my Viceroy pillar drill and so get a bit more space in the workshop – having got the mill installed I think I'll hang on to the pillar drill for a while. I also wanted the longer table so that a vice could live on one end, but even with the gib slackened the X movement is quite stiff so some sort of power feed would be beneficial. The column is reasonably easy to wind up and down (a fast-acting power feed would be a very useful addition, though) but goes slightly tight at the top of its travel. The belt change is slightly disappointing: loosen a large screw, hit the motor base with a soft hammer to get it to swivel, move the belt, hit the motor base again and tighten the screw – it would have been trivially easy to engineer a little over-centre catch-come-tensioner. I've been wondering how the motor case got a small ding but now suspect it was hammered with a regular hammer while tensioning the belt, rather than tapping the base.
I can't recall whether I've mentioned the stand before – it's very good and a worthwhile purchase, unlike the trolley.
I've documented the other problems earlier in the thread. I can't fault the response of Warco staff but detailed quality control appears to be non-existent, or to need improvement. The manufacturer provides a "test record" with a list of ticked inspection items and 7 measurement items, all of which are just inside the stated limit, but this is the manufacturer assessing their own output. I would have happily paid a premium for an independent inspection but this was not possible.

mechman48: thanks for the warning but my profession was electronic engineering so, although it's quite a few years since I was involved with hands-on design, electrickery holds no fears for me. Regarding shorting of power capacitors – potentially (pun intended) this can be quite dangerous. Applying a dead short brings the risk of shock, a loud bang, and damage to the cap so use a power resistor of about 1kohms (suitably insulated) and insulated leads. For large caps the voltage will return after a while so leave the resistor connected.

[MeunierParticipant @meunier]

And to follow on with manuals, as mentioned above, the WM18 mill and the Grizzly G0704 are twins and the Warco GH1230/1236 and the Chester Crusader are twins of the PrecisionMatthews PM1236.
Check out https://www.precisionmatthews.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/PM-1236-v4-1-2017-indd.pdf for a well written. comprehensive manual in plain English.
Thanks duly acknowledged to both Grizzly and PM..
DaveD

[Steve Dunthorne 1Participant @stevedunthorne1]

Thank you to Dave S for his update. I still think I may consider going for the WM18, instead of the WM18B, funnily enough. Hmmmmmm it's not easy to make up my mind.

[Terry KirkupParticipant @terrykirkup37827]

Excuse me for this cheeky add-on question Gentlemen, but while I await a slow boat from China to either Warco or Toolco, can one of you please tell me if the factory-fitted table DRO is mounted on the back of the table, and if so how much Y axis travel do you lose?

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

Posted by Terry Kirkup on 20/12/2020 20:09:53:

Excuse me for this cheeky add-on question Gentlemen, but while I await a slow boat from China to either Warco or Toolco, can one of you please tell me if the factory-fitted table DRO is mounted on the back of the table, and if so how much Y axis travel do you lose?

Best directed to Warco, tomorrow morning?

[David CauntParticipant @davidcaunt67674]

I have had my Warco WM14 bought with DRO's fitted 3 years next Feb. I was please with it especially not having to bother marking out most things other than a start point.

The earlier comments about the Grizzly manuals I totally agree with.

I just came across a problem that has been caused, I believe by the factory added X DRO. The protector had come loose from the moving Y block. On closer inspection the fitting of the DRO sensor meant the protector could no longer be trapped between the block and a plate. So they had fitted longer 5mm screws and nuts as stand offs and just pushed the longer screws through the trapping plate and rubber with nothing but 2 nuts trapping the rubber.

It didn't take long to add another plate and trap the rubber between the original with pop rivets. They should be ashamed of that poor method used, but I hope that Warco were unaware of this appalling modification.

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