Tooling to buy with Warco WM250 and WM16?

[David ColwillParticipant @davidcolwill19261]

Personally I would only buy things that can't be added later. Obviously you will need cutters and a means of holding them and a way of securing work to the mill. After that have a budget available for bits that you need and order them as you go. I see rotary tables have been mentioned, I have one and have never used it. I am not trying to say that rotary tables are no good, just that I don't use one. It can be very frustrating knowing that you have a large chunk of money sat in a drawer when the thing that you need to "crack on" is on hold until finances are available.

I can promise you that you will require a huge number of bits and pieces that you could never guess.

Far better in my opinion to let your new hobby take you where you want to go rather than try and map it out in advance.

Regards.

David.

[Sam Longley 1Participant @samlongley1]

Personally i found the( 250MV) Warco supplied QCTP a waste of money. Everything flexes like hell ( i have it all so tightened up so the screws are stiff) & as every new holder costs £19-00 it is not much use with just 2 holders. I only use it with a boring bar as it make height setting easy & I do not load it up much. .(I do not think that my mill has the power or rigidity to make any new holders). When parting, if the tool jams you can see it flex

As for the mill ( I have a wm 16) do not buy the Warco milling chuck with cutter set as it is for clarkson cutters & will not hold anything else so you are restricted in what you can buy.

I have a 4 inch table from RDG & it is really too light & full of slack so be careful what you buy.

Edited By Sam Longley 1 on 04/02/2018 11:35:01

[Mick B1Participant @mickb1]

Posted by JasonB on 04/02/2018 11:06:50:

Soft Jaws are machined to suit the dia of the work so will be very accurate, less marking, less risk of squashing thin walled items and if you turn a step they will hold thin work flat across the lathe axis.

Yes, you tighten the centre onto a piece of scrap bar and then bore a nest for the workpiece you want to hold.

Standard jaws grip over a smaller arc of the periphery than machined soft jaws, so your grip's better. And you can turn a part around with far better retention of concentricity than you can in standard jaws. That's not a criticism of Warco's chucks – mine is good for a thou or so on the standard jaws, but it would be difficult to hold a thinnish disc flat and square in those, whereas in soft jaws you can locate it back against a machined register.

Powered crossfeed is very useful for broad facing. I use it a lot for milling/flycutting in the lathe, but since you intend to get a mill you possibly won't need it for that.

Edited By Mick B1 on 04/02/2018 12:01:04

[Ross Lloyd 1Participant @rosslloyd1]

Posted by Sam Longley 1 on 04/02/2018 11:26:09:

Personally i found the( 250MV) Warco supplied QCTP a waste of money. Everything flexes like hell ( i have it all so tightened up so the screws are stiff) & as every new holder costs £19-00 it is not much use with just 2 holders. I only use it with a boring bar as it make height setting easy & I do not load it up much. .(I do not think that my mill has the power or rigidity to make any new holders). When parting, if the tool jams you can see it flex

As for the mill ( I have a wm 16) do not buy the Warco milling chuck with cutter set as it is for clarkson cutters & will not hold anything else so you are restricted in what you can buy.

I have a 4 inch table from RDG & it is really too light & full of slack so be careful what you buy.

Edited By Sam Longley 1 on 04/02/2018 11:35:01

Hi Sam, any recommendations on alternate QCTP's and milling chucks?

Cheers

[JourneymanParticipant @journeyman]

Ross, you may be better off getting used to the lathe "as delivered" then decide whether you need a QCTP or not. There are plenty of threads on here discussing the merits or otherwise of various types of QCTP. As for milling chucks assuming you end up with a Warco WM16 probably ER 32 chuck on a an MT2 or MT3 arbour (depends on which version of the WM16) The ER32 is also an ideal size for the lathe which will need a suitable backplate and chuck (later).

John

[Jon CameronParticipant @joncameron26580]

As a relatively new machinist, (only in the last year).

I would recommend buying the best lathe with upgrades, and mill with upgrades that you can afford. Power cross feed ect.

There are other essentials which I think have been posted above already but what I have found most needed is the basics.

A bench mounted grinder, HSS tooling blanks that can be ground to shape, a wet stone to round off the tip, (a greater radius means a smoother finish), a magnetic base and a Dial test indicator, veniers, and micrometers from 0-1", 1-2". Plus a good set of HSS drills. Make sure that you get a four jaw chuck as this will hold any shape material, and can be centered easily.

For the mill an ER collet holder and a small selection of collets, 1/4", 3/8", and 1/2", and end mills to suit, a vise and a clamping set. I can't really comment too much on the mill as i dont have one yet, but one is coming soon.

Anything else can be bought as the need arises, but that is what is consider a beginners set. And most of what I've said above I found out very early that I needed.

Edited By Jon Cameron on 04/02/2018 14:05:03

[David George 1Participant @davidgeorge1]

I bought a cheap double ended bench grinder and I returned it the next day to the local supplier and bought a Creusen DS7 150mm dia x 20 quite a bit more money but the wheels spin straight and true and the tool rests are quite a lot sturdier although I have reinforced them with a plate that goes down the side of the wheel. Buy the best that you can afford is my best quote. I have an ER collet set for my lathe and a collet holder for the mill but they are both ER 32 and swap the collets between machines.

David

[Nick WheelerParticipant @nickwheeler]

Posted by Rik Shaw on 04/02/2018 10:21:00:

Hello Ross – I have had a 250v-f and still have a 16 mill. +1 for all suggestions from chaps on here so far.

I would not be without my QCTP for my lathe. I currently have 17 tool holders but still could do with a few more.

Also, you might consider making yourself a spindle turning mandrel as my 250v-f lowest speed was way too fast for safe screw cutting (for me anyway!)

While I agree with you on the QCTP( I have 14 holders, and get a couple more when I buy other stuff from the various suppliers), just how slowly do you want to screw-cut? The last job I did, several jack adapters in steel, was about 30mm of M12x1 threads done at about 120rpm. The only reason for going that slowly was that the rest of the body was 50mm diameter, so a crash would have been particularly painful.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Interesting topic. The C4- 510 has a bottom speed of 100 rpm, I was surprised to find it was fine for cutting 1mm pitch threads. Using the stop button I could get the cutter to stop within 0.1mm of the same point every time.

Winding back under power instead of releasing the half nuts took some getting used to, but works fine.

A future upgrade might be wiring a bed-mounted microswitch into the stop circuit. Need to check it's at a low voltage first.

Neil

[JourneymanParticipant @journeyman]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 04/02/2018 15:28:08:

Winding back under power instead of releasing the half nuts took some getting used to, but works fine.

Neil

Neil, you need one of these:-

A "Flip-up Screwcutting Toolholder" Details of how to make ***HERE ***

John

Edited By Journeyman on 04/02/2018 15:51:57

[Rik ShawParticipant @rikshaw]

Ross – That is a standard 4 way tool post not a QCTP. Powered cross feed gets you finishes as good as horizontal powered feed – not essential but nice to have.

DRO on the mill? Saves a lot of marking out, is more accurate and minimizes human error.

Rik

Edited By Rik Shaw on 04/02/2018 17:39:33

[Ross Lloyd 1Participant @rosslloyd1]

Posted by Rik Shaw on 04/02/2018 17:36:45:

Ross – That is a standard 4 way tool post not a QCTP. Powered cross feed gets you finishes as good as horizontal powered feed – not essential but nice to have.

DRO on the mill? Saves a lot of marking out, is more accurate and minimizes human error.

Rik

Edited By Rik Shaw on 04/02/2018 17:39:33

Makes sense, thank you!

[richardandtracyParticipant @richardandtracy]

Question is, what are you more likely to do?

I make pens and find an ER32/MT4 collet chuck perfect on the lathe. I have another ER32/MT3 for tool holding in the milling head and a third ER32/MT2 for the rotary table and precision drilling in the drill press. What you do may push you down entirely different directions.

My suggestion is to keep a pot of money for tooling and raid it when you need a particular tool.

Regards

Richard.

[Ross Lloyd 1Participant @rosslloyd1]

Posted by richardandtracy on 06/02/2018 22:13:52:

Question is, what are you more likely to do?

I make pens and find an ER32/MT4 collet chuck perfect on the lathe. I have another ER32/MT3 for tool holding in the milling head and a third ER32/MT2 for the rotary table and precision drilling in the drill press. What you do may push you down entirely different directions.

My suggestion is to keep a pot of money for tooling and raid it when you need a particular tool.

Regards

Richard.

Hi Richard

Its difficult to anticipate at the moment. I am going to be making a lot of robotics projects, which could be all over the shop in terms of sizes and demands. Right now I am looking at making a benchtop industrial robot arm which could have some fairly sizeable parts to turn and mill. However later I would like to work on a mobile platform which will be an altogether smaller proposition. I think your "pot of money" approach may just be the one to go for – that and "have a big cupboard"!

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Journeyman on 04/02/2018 15:46:09:

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 04/02/2018 15:28:08:

Winding back under power instead of releasing the half nuts took some getting used to, but works fine.

Neil

Neil, you need one of these:-

A "Flip-up Screwcutting Toolholder" Details of how to make ***HERE ***

John

Edited By Journeyman on 04/02/2018 15:51:57

I published Mike Cox's internal threading swing tool in MEW, which is what I could have done with.

[ChrisHParticipant @chrish]

+1 for a power cross feed on the lathe, a power feed on the mill x-axis (did anyone say that?) and a dro on the mill for all 3 axis if possible but the Z axis if funds are initially tight.

The basic advice to go for the best lathe spec you can now and worry about the tooling later, just getting what you need when you need it, and to go for the biggest heavist mill you can (heavier the better – makes so much difference to what you can do) is very sound. Far better to get the best lathe and mill you can now rather that spend the next 20 years thinking 'if only….'

Also, to restate, get what you need when you need. Then you will have just what you do need, not a lot of stuff sitting on the shelf gathering dust there 'just in case I need it' – dead money and taking up stowage space. Available stowage space seems to follow one of those laws that say words to the effect of if you have any it will be quickly filled, then where do you put it? HSS toolsteel for the lathe and grind your own. 6 and 10mm end mills to get you going on the mill. Centre/edge finders, cheap ones are OK, essential. Fly cutter not too expensive and good if you are doing big lumps on the mill, and get a decent finish too. Digital calipers – beware, cheap ones can be unreliable, an old fashioned vernier calipers don't fail just when you need them. 0-1", 1-2" or the metric equivalents if you deal in metric, are worth their weight in gold, check e-bay, second hand ones come up frequently and are quite good value, charity shops are often a good source there I find. a clear 6" / 150mm steel rule and a cheap calculator are very useful too. Read/get Harold Halls books Complete Course on the lathe and the mill in the Workshop Practice Series – and use it to get good basic instruction and practical projects to help use both machines.

Hope this helps – good luck, it's a great hobby!

Chris

[JourneymanParticipant @journeyman]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 06/02/2018 22:29:01:

Posted by Journeyman on 04/02/2018 15:46:09:

Neil, you need one of these:-

A "Flip-up Screwcutting Toolholder" Details of how to make ***HERE ***

John

I published Mike Cox's internal threading swing tool in MEW, which is what I could have done with.

As you say my version is not much use for internal threads. I will have to dig out Mike's internal one, sounds to be a useful bit of kit.

John

[mechman48Participant @mechman48]

I have the WM250V-F & the WM 16, both have served me very well to date. If you can afford it get them with belt drive & VFD, + DRO's fitted, do so, I have fitted DRO's to my mill bought from another supplier which has remote read outs & so far has been more than useful to me. I use a couple of adapted digital tyre depth gauges as DRO on my lathe 'X & Y' axis, have a look in my albums for pics.

​I can concur with all other posters as to what you need / want, get used to the machines as bought until you are comfortable with the operations of each then progress on from there. I have a QCTP fitted to mine, a 'Bison' clone of the Dickson type, along with 18 holders, & am looking at getting a few more, I have a ER25 collet set which are used on both machines but I would suggest you go for the ER32 which gives you the capability to use 20mm cutters as opposed to only 16 mm of the ER 25. Some suggest R8 tapers, horses for courses, they weren't available when I bought mine… enjoy.

​p.s. the lowest speed that registers on my 250 V-F is 59 rpm so slow enough for machine threading, not that I have done any yet.

​George.

Edited By mechman48 on 07/02/2018 10:52:31

[Ross Lloyd 1Participant @rosslloyd1]

Hi chaps

I went to warco today, and am leaning more heavily towards going for the WM18. The only thing I am unsure of is the fact it has an R8 taper. I want to buy a collet set that I can use on both the mill and the WM250. Now, the 250 has a 4MT spindle, but I assume you just affix an adapter of some sort to the lathe to make the collets fit. What collet set / adapter to go for to use the collets with both machines?

[Ross Lloyd 1Participant @rosslloyd1]

Posted by mechman48 on 07/02/2018 10:49:04:

I have the WM250V-F & the WM 16, both have served me very well to date. If you can afford it get them with belt drive & VFD, + DRO's fitted, do so, I have fitted DRO's to my mill bought from another supplier which has remote read outs & so far has been more than useful to me. I use a couple of adapted digital tyre depth gauges as DRO on my lathe 'X & Y' axis, have a look in my albums for pics.

​I can concur with all other posters as to what you need / want, get used to the machines as bought until you are comfortable with the operations of each then progress on from there. I have a QCTP fitted to mine, a 'Bison' clone of the Dickson type, along with 18 holders, & am looking at getting a few more, I have a ER25 collet set which are used on both machines but I would suggest you go for the ER32 which gives you the capability to use 20mm cutters as opposed to only 16 mm of the ER 25. Some suggest R8 tapers, horses for courses, they weren't available when I bought mine… enjoy.

​p.s. the lowest speed that registers on my 250 V-F is 59 rpm so slow enough for machine threading, not that I have done any yet.

​George.

Edited By mechman48 on 07/02/2018 10:52:31

That is interesting, isnt the spec of the 250V starting at 30rpm? What do you think is preventing that?

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

I think mechman has the earlier non inverter version which did not run quite so slowly as the latest ones. my 280VF goes down to about 50rpm and tha'ts been fine for everything I have needed to do.

[JourneymanParticipant @journeyman]

Posted by Ross Lloyd 1 on 07/02/2018 19:47:47:

Hi chaps

I went to warco today, and am leaning more heavily towards going for the WM18. The only thing I am unsure of is the fact it has an R8 taper. I want to buy a collet set that I can use on both the mill and the WM250. Now, the 250 has a 4MT spindle, but I assume you just affix an adapter of some sort to the lathe to make the collets fit. What collet set / adapter to go for to use the collets with both machines?

Ross, you don't use the headstock taper to mount a collet chuck, you use backplate and chuck that fix via the 3 bolts to the headstock spindle flange. The collets themselves can be used in either a lathe chuck or in a milling chuck. The WM18 from Warco comes with a 3MT taper or R8. Any taper tooling for the mill would not be any use in the WM250 which has only MT2 in the tailstock barrel.

John

Edit: over enthusiastic auto correct on my tablet

Edited By Journeyman on 07/02/2018 20:44:46

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Though you would be able to use fly cutters and boring heads from a MT3 mill in the lathes spindle. You can also use a MT3 collet holder in the lathe but it will mean you can only hold short work ( no through hole) so a ER lathe chuck is the better option for using your ER collets in the lathe.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Journeyman on 07/02/2018 09:35:32:

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 06/02/2018 22:29:01:

Posted by Journeyman on 04/02/2018 15:46:09:

Neil, you need one of these:-

A "Flip-up Screwcutting Toolholder" Details of how to make ***HERE ***

John

I published Mike Cox's internal threading swing tool in MEW, which is what I could have done with.

As you say my version is not much use for internal threads. I will have to dig out Mike's internal one, sounds to be a useful bit of kit.

John

I will probably do an external one like yours, more useful TBH.

[Ross Lloyd 1Participant @rosslloyd1]

Hi Journeyman,

Warco appear to have updated the spec on the 18 to only offer R8 taper now – at least, 3MT is not offered in the catalogue and today Warco only seemed to indicate availability of R8. Perhaps I will do a little digging!

Please bear with me as I am still processing all this new info:

• Assuming I get an R8 mill, am I understanding you correctly that if I just buy a collet chuck for the lathe it would still be possible to use the collet set on both mill and lathe? No taper tooling is needed on the lathe (at least at the headstock end) if that is the case?
• Can one use both ER32 and ER25 in an R8 taper (to get the full range of sizes), and do you need two separate lathe chucks?

Many thanks for your ongoing help, trying to figure all of this out as a newbie is quite the exercise!

 

Edited By Ross Lloyd 1 on 07/02/2018 22:04:08

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