first go at Tig Welding

[Ron HancockParticipant @ronhancock63652]

super simplex boiler

[Ron HancockParticipant @ronhancock63652]

Just tried my new Eastwood 200 amp Tig Welder.

I made mistake of leaving tubes protruding as if i was Silver soldering the pipes.

It ended up having to build it up to end of the tubes not very neat but it's welded fine and its very easy to weld.

when i do the other end of Pipes i will leave flush i have already tried on a scrap piece and a tube nice and neat.

I was so surprised how easy it was to weld the foot pedal is great for more or less Power.

So easy i think if any one can silver solder they would be able to Tig weld as long as you remember to heat before welding.

The part i like the most compared to silver solder is you can always go back and weld where silver solder you cannot.

Plus a Kilo of sil-copper welding rods £55 bit different to silver solder.

I know i will get some not so nice feedback from people who do not like Tig welding but its the way forward i am sure.

Any one near Tamworth who would like to try bring a bit copper come and try seeing is believing.

Plus you can always go back if not happy with weld

[ChrisHParticipant @chrish]

Hi Ron, was that a copper boiler you were welding?

When you say it's welded fine, have you welded up a test piece and then cut it, sectioned it, to determine the weld penetration? That would be an interesting exercise and a good reassurance of the weld integrity!

I must say I quite like the idea of TIG welding as you describe, it certainly gets round the problem of ensuring you get enough heat into a soldered joint.

Chris

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

To save asking or going looking this is the weld

Does look more like tig brazing than welding to me? the fillere rod appears to have flowed a lot more than I would have expected for a weld

 

Edited By JasonB on 20/11/2014 18:42:10

Edited By JasonB on 10/12/2014 09:15:31

[MuzzerParticipant @muzzer]

Sounds as if you are TIG brazing, given the mention of SilCopper, so you shouldn't be seeing any penetration as such. Nice thing about TIG brazing is you don't need to use flux and you can control how fluid the copper gets quite easily.

I love TIG welding and brazing but practice is essential – and welding is quite a bit more difficult than brazing. With both, preparation and cleanliness are critical. You don't seem to have got very good wetting around the edges and there is quite a bit of oxidation of the parts so you may need to clean them up again and make sure you have enough gas flow.

Not an expert on boilers, as I've never made one, but leaving more of a protrusion would give better visibility of the wetting and you presumably need some meniscus to give the joint some strength.

Murray

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Ron, what number rods did you use as the Sifsilcopper range has ones for brazing and ones for welding and I think the welding ones only come in 5kg packs

[julian atkinsParticipant @julianatkins58923]

hi ron,

i dont know what sil copper rods are, but a quick search on the internet suggests they contain phosphorous. if this is the case then no wonder they are cheap, plus unfortunately they are totally unsuitable for miniature boiler work particularly in a firebox environment.

i would run all this past your club boiler inspector before you go any further, and he may need to consult the southern fed/northern fed before coming back to you.

cheers,

julian

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Julian, neither contain Phosphorous

**LINK**

**LINK**

[MuzzerParticipant @muzzer]

If it's a copper boiler then you are welding, if it's steel you are brazing. Hard to tell which in this case but I'm suspecting it's actually a copper vessel? The added silicon doesn't seem to affect the melting point, so it's essentially an almost pure copper rod.

[GoCreateParticipant @gocreate]

 

I have been thinking about tig,  a friend of mine uses sil-bronze for welding/brazing motor cycle frames.

Here is tig brazing steel to st st.

Nigel

Edited By tractionengine42 on 20/11/2014 23:21:08

Edited By tractionengine42 on 20/11/2014 23:23:29

[MuzzerParticipant @muzzer]

The penny's finally dropped for me I think. You appear to have attempted to braze (solder) a copper boiler using copper filler rods. However, you haven't heated it enough to actually fuse the parts together – if you did, we'd be looking at a large hole where the end plate had collapsed into a puddle of solid copper at the other end of the boiler.

For a small copper boiler, you'd need to possess TIG welding skills that very few people possess (and much smaller filler rods) or be using a solder (ie a filler with a lower melting point than the copper). I've never tried it myself but it looks as if you could silver solder using TIG if you were so inclined.

Realistically, unless I'm wrong and it's actually a steel boiler that can be brazed, you are going to have to revert to some form of soldering (silver?). I suspect the challenge now will be to try to recover something from what we see. I doubt the puddle of copper will come away easily, yet it can't be made into a sound joint. If you melt it enough to fuse, it will almost certainly collapse. I doubt you can silver solder it in its present form either.

I hope I'm wrong but TBH I suspect I'm not. It's a learning process from which only good can come!!

Murray

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Murray, thats what I first thought when I saw the picture, I was expecting a bead of weld around each tube but it looks like the filler rod has melted and flowed over the whole surface particularly at the top. This is more what I was expecting.

[Ron HancockParticipant @ronhancock63652]

Yes it did have beads but i had to build up to much as i had left tubes protruding out.

After i ground down its like a solid piece of copper now.

The rods where sifsil copper no 968.

Hope they where the correct ones.

It does not look very good but hope it will last.

I have to start on my Britannia boiler next so hope to show a lot neater work on that one.

Will try and have my next go hopefully will be like Jason's as that is what i will be aiming for

[MuzzerParticipant @muzzer]

Bl**dy hell Jason, that's almost sickeningly good welding, not least given the restricted access! I've not done any copper TIG welding, only stainless, mild and aluminium but I don't expect it's any easier.

No doubt you did it entirely manually ie without a turntable…..

Murray

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Not my welding ( I wish) just used the picture to show what I was expecting even allowing for a first attempt the filler just looked more liquid and a different composition going by colour

[nigel jones 5Participant @nigeljones5]

J – Is that a picture of what is being discussed? If it is then it isn't welding (not sure I have a word for it and im certainly not going to be offensive). Looks like a solder/braze. I can confirm with a somewhat swollen head that my TIG welded copper boilers look like the second photo, albeit on thinner section. It pays to use thicker tubes otherwise there is not enough land to anchor the weld and the end of the tube burns away before the tube plate fuses. And if you try using non deoxy for the tube ends you will clearly hear it cracking as it cools. I prefer to silsol my tubes in so that they can be easily removed if needed at a later date. Most of the welds are outside fillet so just a good fuse and fillet are all that is needed for strength. Be very wary of TIG brazing, I tried this on a boiler firebox once, it looked great but the metals fail to fuse well and it leaked badly. Lesson learned! The more I look at it the moor it looks like the filler rod has just been melted onto the substrate. Hey, but 10 out of 10 to that man for trying!

[Ron HancockParticipant @ronhancock63652]

Hi Fizzy

Hi thank you for reply thought it worth showing even though i myself not happy with it.

I am very intrested in the sifsil rod's can you give me a bit more info befor i start for real on my black 5 boiler please.

Going to buy more copper and tubes tomorrow so be intrested to try others rods first whilst i till have other to practice on.

I will be cutting of the pipes cleaning and using new peice copper to practise on agin first

Ron

[alan frostParticipant @alanfrost17805]

Ron, the welds in Jason b's post were obviously done by someone who had progressed beyond expert. I've done a bit of arc welding long ago and keep putting off using my posh new arc/TIG welder (despite an input from a welder friend who tells me "if you've done it then half hours practice and you'll be flying".) I'm not convinced.

One thing I do believe is that a good quality welding kit (and if you have a foot pedal it suggests yours is) makes all the difference. Even so unless you're naturally gifted at welding I think a lot of practice would be needed to weld a small boiler that passed all tests. Let us know how you get on.

Regards Alan

[nigel jones 5Participant @nigeljones5]

Hi Ron, what is the thickness of the plate you intend to weld? Unless it is a 31/2" gauge I seriously doubt that 200 amp will be enough, and remember that 200 is absolute max at likely a very low duty cycle (this is supposed to be helpful so sorry if it sounds negative, not meant to). If its a water cooled torch you might get enough heat in but non cooled torch will literally melt at this amps and heat. I know, mine does! I havnt tried them but have heard good things about sifsilcopper no.7 rods. Easy flow with tidy pools. I have a kilo of unopened rods for copper but canny remember which they are. Cheap option is to cut up strips of copper pipe or plate and use as filler, but ensure it is deoxy first.

[Ron HancockParticipant @ronhancock63652]

Hi mine welds 3mm easy do you have foot pedal with yours.

I could have bought a pack of no 7 but said no good Tig welding.

He offerd me a pack normal price £300 but after phong Sif they said not suitable for tig and Copper.

They recomend the 985 said the most suitable.

The number 7 are great for Gas welding.

It your Local to Tamworth Staffs your welcombe to try mine with pedal very east and so controlable.

[WindyParticipant @windy30762]

As an amateur Tig welder I have found this welding site very useful this weeks tip is on silicon bronze welding **LINK**

Paul

 

Edited By Windy on 10/12/2014 09:08:22

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by JasonB on 20/11/2014 18:32:13:

To save asking or going looking this is the weld

Does look more like tig brazing than welding to me? the fillere rod appears to have flowed a lot more than I would have expected for a weld

Edited By JasonB on 20/11/2014 18:42:10

.

Jason,

Any chance you could re-post the picture?

… it seems to have gone awol

Thanks

MichaelG.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Thats what happens when a member deletes a photo from their album

Best I can do is put the rewelded photo there which I will do now.

J

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Thanks, Jason

MichaelG.

[MuzzerParticipant @muzzer]

For the avoidance of further confusion, when joining copper to copper using copper rods (eg Sifsilcopper 985) as Ron is, the process is "welding". When joining similar or dissimilar metals eg steel with copper (or other similar "bronze" alloy) rods, the process is "brazing", whether the heat source is an arc or otherwise. The tipsandtricks page deals with brazing.

And if you try using electrical copper wire, copper plumbing tube or other non-oxygen-free filler, you will not have a happy experience!

Murray

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