Bourdon Gauge

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

I have an old Bourdon dual Gauge marked "E. Bourdon's Patent' and "E.Bourdon Inven_tr and Manufacturer, PARIS".

Can anyone help me date it? The following from Wikipedia suggests it may be very early, and the hand lettering and very flawed glass suggests it is rather old.

"Eugene Bourdon patented his gauge in France in 1849, and it was widely adopted because of its superior sensitivity, linearity, and accuracy; Edward Ashcroft purchased Bourdon's American patent rights in 1852 and became a major manufacturer of gauges. Also in 1849, Bernard Schaeffer in Magdeburg, Germany patented a successful diaphragm (see below) pressure gauge, which, together with the Bourdon gauge, revolutionized pressure measurement in industry.^[6] But in 1875 after Bourdon's patents expired, his company Schaeffer and Budenberg also manufactured Bourdon tube gauges."

More pics here:

Neil

 

Edited By Neil Wyatt on 15/11/2014 10:55:39

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

Nearest I'v got is my Barometer. Ian S C

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi. and I've got this very distressed one, without a glass front or history pointer, which was presented to my grandfather by his staff on his retirement.

But I guess that's no help to you at all, but I can date it to around the start of 1958.

This was knocked off the wall by my younger brother many years ago when we were still at school age, our dad was not very pleased. It still seems to work, although I don't know if it tells the truth.

Regards Nick.

Edited By Nicholas Farr on 15/11/2014 11:23:29

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

Nick, your Barometer has is a modern aneroid type with a capsule (the round corrugated thing you can see behind the movement), the Bourdon type has a horse shoe shaped (what's the word), as you see in any pressure guage.

Ian S C

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Hi Nick,

I have an identical barometer on they shelf above me (sans wheel, it's in a simple wooden case I made)!

Mine also lacks the glass and pointer, but only since about three months ago but my impression is that it is a very well made example.

Take a look inside my bourdon gauge, you can see it's not modern mass production:

The number scratched inside is 3614 to match that stamped on the case, it's definitely in a 'continental' hand evidencing French manufacture.

Neil

Edited By Neil Wyatt on 16/11/2014 11:42:20

[steamdaveParticipant @steamdave]

Neil

Perhaps someone in the antique instrument business may be able to help you.
Have a word with http://www.barometerworld.co.uk/ as a starting point.

Dave
The Emerald Isle

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

A couple of hints here

MichaelG.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Thanks both,

I've sent an email to the Barometer Museum/website.

I often end up in Okehampton on holiday, so perhaps I will drop in on them one day.

Neil

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi Ian & Neil, just shows you how much I know about Barometers. I don't use mine really, just keep it because it was my grandfarthers and I remember it well when we used to go to nana and grandads for summer hols when we were kids, also reminds me of my late elder brother as he once showed me that you needed to tap the glass gently a couple of times to get the true reading. Took it in many years ago to see if it could be fixed with a new glass ect., but was told it would be cheaper to buy a new one. The cost of repair was a little steep for my pocket at the time, and I didn't really want a new one. One day I might get round to tidying it up a bit, but that might never happen.

Regards Nick.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Hi Nick:

Look here: either 3" or 78mm should fit:

**LINK**

£4.95 seems fair to me. Not sure If I fancy drilling the centre and fitting a new pointer – I might try!

Neil

[roy entwistleParticipant @royentwistle24699]

Hi Nick Try Meadows and Passmore

Roy

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 15/11/2014 10:11:49:

I have an old Bourdon dual Gauge marked "E. Bourdon's Patent' and "E.Bourdon Inven_tr and Manufacturer, PARIS".

.

Neil,

You may have this already; but anyway, here is the relevant patent.

MichaelG.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Thanks Michael,

I could find lots of more recent patents, but not the original French one.

It's interesting he had invented a linear version, although the motion would be quite small.

Sadly the last page is missing. It seems to be a re-registering in 1852, three year's after the original and the time he sold out to the American, Edward Ashcroft – presumably Ashcroft wanted toe ensure his investment was protected at home!

Neil

Edited By Neil Wyatt on 16/11/2014 18:24:03

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Neil,

I still can't find the original patent, but you might like this page.

MichaelG.

.

Edit: … and this one [lots of detail pictures, various manufacturers]

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 16/11/2014 23:01:01

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

… We must keep looking for the 1849 patent:

According to this source, it contaned over seventy drawings!

MichaelG.

.

Edit: does anyone on the forum have access to these publications 

Edit: … don't worry; the reports should be in here 

[Download via Google Play, or via the Tools icon towards the right of the page]

 

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 16/11/2014 23:33:41

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 16/11/2014 23:45:07

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

"Mr Brunel, V.P. said he had tried these instruments on the Great Western Railway and had every reason to be satisfied with their accuracy."

Sadly, google has managed to fluff scanning the fold-out plates.

Neil

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 17/11/2014 10:41:23:

"Mr Brunel, V.P. said he had tried these instruments on the Great Western Railway and had every reason to be satisfied with their accuracy."

• I thought you would like that

Sadly, google has managed to fluff scanning the fold-out plates.

• Often the case I'm afraid … despite their claims on the opening page of the PDF.

.

Maybe someone with an academic account could try the other link for us.

MichaelG.

[Steven VineParticipant @stevenvine79904]

Hi Neil

Here is a different type, but with a similar inscription.

**LINK**

Steve

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Well spotted Steve, it looks like the same stamp.

Neil

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi Neil and Roy, thanks for your suggested sources. A 3" glass will fit in OK but will have a little slop, but a 78mm is 0.5mm to big. The original glass was a bit more profiled rather than just covexed, I've managed to ease the dial out and have taken the best edge on photo of it to show a slight profile of it, the original glass more or less followed the same kind of profile, in which the centre was slightly depressed, maybe that is why I was told it would have been pricey to replace.

As you may be able to see in the photo above, the dial starts off convexed from the outside and comes to a peak and then covexes down towards the middle. I might well order a suitable convexed glass and put it in, at least it will keep the dust out. Not too sure I'd want to try and drill an hole in it, so it may end up pointless (no pun intended)

At least I've cleaned the dial up and wiped some dust out off the bottom of the chamber that the workings fit into.

Regards Nick.

Edited By Nicholas Farr on 17/11/2014 23:19:16

Edited By Nicholas Farr on 17/11/2014 23:20:36

[Steven VineParticipant @stevenvine79904]

Just to keep this moving on a bit (alright, I'm laid up at the moment with a bit of time to spare) ….

A quick search in 'Graces Guide' leads to Negretti and Zambra (founded 1850). Although your gauge does not look like one of their manufacture, there is a loose connection with Negretti and Zambra as one of their adverts (1880) shows a Bourdon Trade mark stamp similar to that on the casing of your pressure gauge … **LINK**

You can download a rather large google PDF file of the Negretti and Zambra's encyclopaedic instrument catalogue, which was published after 1884, maybe circa 1887?. A search for Bourdon in the catalogue shows a few pressure gauge drawings and information at page 205 onwards … **LINK** The catalogue states that Negretti and Zambra were sole agents for the Bourdon Gauge (whatever that means). I must admit I thought your gauge was a refurb/fake due to the pristine face. If the Negretti catalogue is to be believed, it states it is genuine if it has the Bourdon stamp on it. The catalogue states that if the instrument does not bear the E Bourdon trade mark, then it is not of the M Bourdon manufacture, which I do not understand?

Not that I know anything about patents and licences and how they work, maybe Negretti Zambra acquired the UK Licence sometime before the patent expired (in 1875?). Re an earlier posting: one online locomotive book states that Ashcroft acquired the American 'Licence' after a visit to the 1851 Paris Great Exhibition (Bourdon is not listed in the participants at that event).

Other thoughts I'll throw in the pot. The rather fine looking font on the gauge looks French (the typography is similar to the French Didot Linotype). Your font looks like it is matches that on the ebay gauge I linked to earlier. The English wording Compound Gauge makes me think it was not for the French market?

I'd be interested to see what the experts come up with.

Steve

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Thanks Steve,

I'm sure its genuine Bourdon. The printed stamp on the dial is also impressed on the case.

M. Bourdon just means Monsieur Bourdon.

I'm increasingly optimistic that it is a genuine 19 th century example.

Neil

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

Bourdon did take part in the 1868 or there abouts, one exhibit was his "Improved steam, or compressed air engine, This engine connects a crankshaft to a Bourdon tube, the crankshaft is fitted with a substantial flywheel.

A number of years ago I sent an article to Dave Clarke, it must be deep in the ME archives.

Ian S C

[Steven VineParticipant @stevenvine79904]

Hi Neil

I'll blow the dust off this one again. I few weeks ago I was thumbing through a digital back copy of 'The English Mechanic' Vol1 No1 dated March 31st 1865 (as you do). In amongst the adverts on page 12 there is an image of the Bourdon stamp. It looks similar to the stamp on your gauge.

 

Although this does not date your instrument, you can say the design of your stamp definitely existed in 1865.

The future is digital!

Regards

Steve

PS I hope I am not infringing copyright with these extracts.

 

Edited By Steven Vine on 16/02/2015 13:38:58

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