ANTIFYRE Extinguisher Shipping?

[Martin King 2Participant @martinking2]

Hi All

I have just finished cleaning up a very nice brass fire extinguisher and mounting by ANTIFYRE which uses carbon tetrachloride.

It is almost full of liquid.

Am I allowed to ship this within the UK with the liquid intact?

If I have to empty it are there any particular things to look out for, obviously will do it outside!?

There are lots of the smaller pistol type ones on EBay which appear UNUSED ie full? Mine is like the old PYRENE pump ones.

Cheers, Martin

[Martin King 2Participant @martinking2]

[SamsarandaParticipant @samsaranda]

Carbon Tetrachloride is banned, it is deemed very carcinogenic, used to be used as a solvent and years ago many of us used it in industry. I wouldn’t like to give advice on how to dispose of the liquid as there are probably a multitude of regulations that cover it. Definitely not safe to ship with carriers. Dave W

[Martin King 2Participant @martinking2]

Was Carbon Tet the "original" dry cleaning fluid?

Martin

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

This is probably more than you wanted to know, Martin: **LINK**

https://inchem.org/documents/hsg/hsg/hsg108.htm

MichaelG.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Martin King 2 on 03/09/2022 13:43:47:

Was Carbon Tet the "original" dry cleaning fluid?

Martin

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Not according to Wikipedia, and not mentioned in my previous link

MichaelG.

[Martin King 2Participant @martinking2]

Thanks Michael & Dave,

A trip to the local fire station is called for I think.

Hopefully they will be able to safely empty it and I will not lose the item which is rather nice!

Will let you know what they say.

Cheers, Martin

[noel shelleyParticipant @noelshelley55608]

I would be causious of involving officialdom in ANY way, it could prove costly and difficult. This fluid is quite volatile and left to it's own devices outside in an open container will just disappear ! The container if it is the pump type is not pressurised so can be opened and the fluid just poured out. Noel.

[Mark RandParticipant @markrand96270]

Posted by Samsaranda on 03/09/2022 13:38:21:

Carbon Tetrachloride is banned, it is deemed very carcinogenic, used to be used as a solvent and years ago many of us used it in industry. I wouldn’t like to give advice on how to dispose of the liquid as there are probably a multitude of regulations that cover it. Definitely not safe to ship with carriers. Dave W

This is not true at all!

It will damage your liver in high concentrations and in higher ones will damage your kidneys. It is, however, deemed as a possible human carcinogen.

Edited By Mark Rand on 03/09/2022 15:57:21

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

This seems to be definitive. It basically agrees with Noel. Do it on a windy day or it can gather, it's heavier than air even as a vapour

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by duncan webster on 03/09/2022 17:29:46:

This seems to be definitive.

 

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Yes …that’s why I posted it earlier

MichaelG.

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Unfortunately … one thing it doesn’t define is what constitutes a small quantity:

”

4.7  Disposal

         Small quantities of carbon tetrachloride may be disposed of by
    evaporation in a fume cupboard or in a safe, open area. Incineration
    is not recommended due to the non-flammability of carbon tetrachloride
    and to the formation of phosgene, hydrogen chloride and other toxic
    gases on heating.

    4.8  Spillage

         In case of spillage of carbon tetrachloride, ensure personel
    protection (protective clothing, safety goggles, rubber gloves and
    respiratory protective device) and carefully shut off leaks. Adsorb
    the spilt carbon tetrachloride in earth, sand or inert absorbent and
    remove to a safe place. Prevent liquid from entering sewers, basements
    and workpits because the vapour may create a toxic atmosphere.

         If carbon tetrachloride has entered a water course or sewer or if
    it has contaminated soil or vegetation, the police should be warned.

 

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 03/09/2022 18:16:36

[Speedy Builder5Participant @speedybuilder5]

I was told the story early on in my apprenticeship not to smoke over a bath of Carbon Tet as the heat of the cigarette turned the vapour into phosgene. This was discovered as operatives of the degreasing baths who smoked often had breathing difficulties as other non smokers didn't experience. Good old days of smoking in the factory !!

I think they changed over to MEK and then something else after that.

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

I would empty it into a suitable container, a metallic tin is best, and use it sparingly as a solvent cleaner. Only outside of course.
Note that it can react violently with finely divided aluminium and light alloys.
It's hard to get it to do it if you wanted to demonstrate it, but I have seen a pile of swarf get hot enough to start a fire once the carbon tetrachloride evaporated.

Robert G8RPI.

[Clive HartlandParticipant @clivehartland94829]

The only ones I have seen used and opened had red colour in the Carbon tet! not good for cleaning.

If burnt gives Black smoke and not nice.

[Anonymous]

Posted by Speedy Builder5 on 03/09/2022 18:53:00:

I was told the story early on in my apprenticeship not to smoke over a bath of Carbon Tet as the heat of the cigarette turned the vapour into phosgene. This was discovered as operatives of the degreasing baths who smoked often had breathing difficulties as other non smokers didn't experience. Good old days of smoking in the factory !!

 

According to my memory those baths were trichlorethylene ("Trico" or "Trike"  ) and yes there was the problem with inhaling the fumes through a cigarette….

Carbon Tetrachloride is dry-cleaning fluid isn't it?

 

(edit – darn winkies)

 

Edited By Peter Greene 🇨🇦 on 03/09/2022 23:32:26

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Peter Greene 🇨🇦 on 03/09/2022 23:27:09:

Carbon Tetrachloride is dry-cleaning fluid isn't it?

.

Please see yesterday's discussion

MichaelG.

[Dr. MC BlackParticipant @dr-mcblack73214]

Posted by Martin King 2 on 03/09/2022 14:00:04:

Thanks Michael & Dave,

A trip to the local fire station is called for I think.

Hopefully they will be able to safely empty it and I will not lose the item which is rather nice!

Will let you know what they say.

Cheers, Martin

I suggest that you ask a friend to telephone and ask if the Fire Brigade can dispose of the contents and let you keep the container.

If you just go there, you might get an answer that you do NOT wish to hear!

The technician at your local Technical College may be prepared to evaporate it in a fume cupboard.

MC

 

 

Edited By Dr. MC Black on 04/09/2022 10:30:21

[Mark RandParticipant @markrand96270]

Why not just keep the fire extinguisher in the condition that it was designed to be until it is used on a fire?

It's lasted a number of decades so far, It'll probably last a few more…

[JellyParticipant @jelly]

This touches on two areas of professional expertise for me, so I apologise if this ends up being more detailed than you need.

You can ship just about anything in the UK or EU, it's just a case of properly declaring it and using an appropriate courier if it's classed as being "Dangerous Goods"; TNT, FedEx and UPS all offer DG as an option but you pay about £10 more per item and have to fill in an additional form.

Exactly what classes as DG is defined by the Agreement on the Transport of Dangerous Goods by Road (ADR) which is comprehensive in an impenetrably detailed sort of way.

Carbon Tetrachloride is UN 1846, Class 6.1 (Toxic), Packing Group II (Medium Risk) – see Pg 380 of Volume 1 linked.

Quantities under 100ml are exempted and not considered Dangerous Goods, Quantities under 333KG can be transported commercially under a separate exemption set out in paragraph 1.1.3.6 (Sub Paragraph 1.1.3.6.3 identifies the quantity) subject to appropriate packaging and paperwork being used.

If you personally transport it in your capacity as a private individual Paragraph 1.1.3.1 clause a) exempts you from the carriage regulations entirely.

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Regards disposal the advice to allow it to evaporate to atmosphere is woefully outdated, and doing so deliberately for the purposes of disposal would constitute a criminal offence under the Waste (England and Wales) Regulations 2011.

Release to the environment is also pretty terrible for said environment (specifically groundwater) even in comparatively small quantities, this is why Carbon Tet and other chlorinated degreasers/dry cleaning agents have been progressively phased out under REACH and latterly UK-REACH.

That said, those self-same waste regulations impose a legal duty on your local council to provide a service for the disposal of Hazardous Waste from Householders. So you should be able to discharge the extinguisher into a suitable (Polyethylene or Glass) container, then take it to a HWRC (CA site / Council Tip), arrange to take it to a periodic Amnesty Event, or have it collected from your house (the service varies depending on your council)…

I should emphasize, DO NOT take the whole extinguisher to the Tip, discharge the contents into a suitable container first and take that (ideally clearly labeled with the contents to assist the poor soul who periodically gets sent to catalogue and collect it all) unless you want to end up losing your extinguisher.

[SandgrounderParticipant @sandgrounder]

Posted by Jelly on 14/09/2022 02:17:13:

take it to a HWRC (CA site / Council Tip), arrange to take it to a periodic Amnesty Event, or have it collected from your house (the service varies depending on your council)…

I should emphasize, DO NOT take the whole extinguisher to the Tip, discharge the contents into a suitable container first and take that (ideally clearly labeled with the contents to assist the poor soul who periodically gets sent to catalogue and collect it all) unless you want to end up losing your extinguisher.

that's what I did with a 1L bottle of MEKP I had, I rang my the council and they told me to take it to our local tip which I did.

John

[CHAS LIPSCOMBEParticipant @chaslipscombe64795]

The discrepancy between what Michael Gilligan has unearthed and the actual use of carbon tetrachloride is due to the fact that carbon tet was not used in dry cleaner shops but was widely used in a non-commercial environment. It used to be sold in the 1950's/60's in bottles with a cloth top arrangement so that it could be rubbed on a grease spot to remove it.

There was a famous case in about 1958/9 of a gas meter reader who had a whole string of housewives who were up for sex – his speciallity was to give them a whiff of carbon tet to induce a sense of euphoria before or during the act ( like glue sniffing). How he suceeded in not killing any of them I do not know. For a variety of reasons carbon tet is a chemical we are better off without.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Thanks, CHAS

Every day we learn a little more.

MichaelG.

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Edit: __ and likewise, my thanks to Jelly

 

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 14/09/2022 09:19:30

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