Safety Valve Advice

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Safety Valve Advice

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  • #94926
    Sub Mandrel
    Participant
      @submandrel

      It's only taken a couple of years, but I've finally made some fittings for my verical boiler (to the design in Tubal Cains Simple Steam Engines 2, but a little bit taller). My pressure gauge is one of a fire extinguisher, modified by removing a ring which increased its resitance – recalibrated against a quality gauge it works well.

      Anyway, I filled it yup, turned on the gas and started heating. At 10psi the gauge leaked wisps of steam around teh base, a quarter turn stopped that. At 15 psi safety valve started to leak a little steam. I had it set fairly loose, and I was concerned that by 20psi it still hadn't popped.

      I gingerly prodded the top pin of the safety valve to see if it was stuck and 'wham' a huge jet of wet steam hit the ceiling of my workshop, presumably as it primed. I lost 1/4" of water in the glass but it stopped wjhen I turned the gas off. A repeat outside saw the same., except teh geyser was about 12 feet high and created a localised shower downwind, much to the cat's alarm. It didn't close again until the pressure was nearly zero.

      It's a Martin Evans pattern safety valve, and I think the problem is the fit of the valve stem in the screwed and vented plug at the top of the valve, although it has a good polished finish.

      At least I know the valve can vent plenty of steam, but any advice on getting a proper 'pop' action?

      Thanks

      Neil

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      #6256
      Sub Mandrel
      Participant
        @submandrel
        #94949
        michael howarth 1
        Participant
          @michaelhowarth1

          Neil…I have been experimenting with safety valves for a while now, using the standard types of design and although I had some sucesses I most often ended up wasting a load of time and materials. I then discovered a gentleman called Gordon Smith who has spent many years developing a whole range of safety valves both full size and for models. From what he told me, I gather that there is a direct relationship between the inlet hole size, the ball, the size of the valve chamber, valve outlet and properties of the spring. "Wrongness" in any one of these things can cause a malfunction but the spring is all important. The first valve I made to his recommendations was an instant success with a perfect pop action. The symptoms that you describe in your model I recognise quite well and I would say off the top of my head that the main problem is the spring.

          Gordon did e mail me some designs for gauge 1 boilers which I would be happy to share with you if you PM me. Otherwise Polly Engineering have his designs at 50P.

          Mick

          #94950
          mgj
          Participant
            @mgj

            If the valve has a wing type plunger, ie an area which sees steam in the boiler and a pop type ring which see steam escaped and provides a larger area, then probalby the area of the ring is too big. ie it lifts at a pressure, and then the increased area keeps it open to a much lower pressure.

            The adjustment procedure is to get the valve to lift at the correct pressure- adjust spring compression/preload or rate until that is right. (using a gauge and the air compressor one will scrounge access to) At this stage don't worry about closing.

            Once it lifts at the right pressure, then adjust the ring or the area between ring and wall, untill it closes at the right pressure.

            I'm just doing exactly this for Metre Maid which has standard ball type safeties, and they buzz and fizz, so its getting new safeties of the pop type.

            Google Ross type safeties.

            #94959
            doubletop
            Participant
              @doubletop

              In the past I was having trouble getting a safety valve to work after many attempts, so dug out all the information I could get from the books on hand LSBC, Martin Evans etc etc. I came to the conclusion there were only minor evolutionary changes from LSBC's 1920's designs to modern versions. I had started to tabulate the dimensions to see what was common and noticed trends. It was only when I got a copy of the Kozo Hiraoka article on safety valves in Live Steam and Outdoor Railroading Vol41 Issue 1 that confirmed there is a direct relationship in all the dimensions. So not much scope for variation and you can see why these guys would stick to what worked.

              Get it here **LINK** (which may seem strange on the ME website but the article is so good perhaps David could arrange for a re-print?)

              They'll ship worldwide

              In the end I gave up trying and now buy from Polly Model, they work out of the box and as your experienced has shown they aren't something to be messed with.

              Pete

              #95006
              Sub Mandrel
              Participant
                @submandrel

                Thanks folks,

                My sizes were interpolated from one using a 5/16 ball and one using a 3/16" ball (IIRC) so i think the dimensions were about right.

                I traced most of my problems to two things – the valve stem was too thin by about 20 thou, and I managed to drill the recess in the middle of it off centre (I had the drill in the 3-jaw and the stem in the tailstock, as it was too thin to hold in the 3-jaw).

                I made a larger stem and used a bit of 3/32" tube as a collet so i could hold it in the 3-jaw. This one works much better. I was able to adjust it from 20psi up to 30psi, at either it will happily pass all the steam the cgas burner can make (if I turn gas up higher, the flame becomes 'unfocused' and the steam rate drops). It doesn't pop shut, but closes gently but reasonably positively.

                I tried lfiting itr right up with tweezers when blowing gently at 30psi – the boiler immediately primes and holds it open until pressure drops to 27psi, when its closed with a sudden snap. I imaging that this is the 'pop' action I'd get if my valve was perfect. As it is I think I'm happy it works reliably and my fittings don't leak, so i'll probably put up with some fizz – although I'm jkeen to see Mick's example of George's design, as my boiler is roughly equivalent to gauge 1 size.

                Neil

                #95107
                Sub Mandrel
                Participant
                  @submandrel

                  Looking at Gordon Smth's designs (thanks Mick) there are four very noticeable differences to 'standard' designs'

                  1. Instead of a small hollow for the ball on the end of the spindle, there is a deep drilling that effectively shrouds the ball creating a shape like a hemisphere on the end of a cylinder. This centralises the ball more positively.
                  2. The narrow annulus around the ball is much longer and combined with the larger 'socket' means that there is a more constant sized annualr gap above teh ball, so resistance steam flow varies much less with valve lift.
                  3. Valve lift is reduced (the tall valve is essentailly just the small one at the top of a long base) so teh amount of valve lift is very limited.
                  4. The spring is FAR shorter so regardless of the spring strength, its rate will be much higher -in fact the springs illustrated probably lock solid when most valves would still have lots of easy travel.

                  I imagine that these have several effects:

                  1. The spung ball ensures, like most valves, opening is progressive, but changes have been implemented to maintain this progression is smooth as the valvecontinues to rise.
                  2. The size of the annulus around the ball is critical, and must be large enough to pass all the steam the boiler can make, as unlike other designs there is no possibility of the valve lifting right up, as when I caused my boiler to prime.
                  3. For the same reason, as long as the annulus is well proportioned, lifting of the valve is less likely to cause priming.
                  4. The constant annulus design means valve lift has a smooth relationship to the rate of steam loss – the lack of a 'step' means there is the minimum of hysterisis and stopping the valve lingering open.
                  5. Finally, combined with the lack opf hysterisis, the high spring rates help ensure a snap action with prmpt closure.

                  This is what ensures the valve opens and closes again over a small pressure range with of minimum of hysterisis

                  Neil

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