How do I begin with no knowlegde of machining

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How do I begin with no knowlegde of machining

This topic has 20 replies, 15 voices, and was last updated 16 April 2012 at 20:37 by merlin.

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8 April 2012 at 17:48 #6080
N Perry
Participant
@nperry28574
I want to build a 1 or 1 1/2 inch traction engine.
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8 April 2012 at 17:48 #88671
N Perry
Participant
@nperry28574
Hi I am a practical hands on guy thats into old bikes cars and steam engines. I started mucking about with stationary engines and morris minors when I was a kid, i'm now 34. I have converted a petrol land rover to diesel and rebuilt the engine and restored an old classics bike, and done a little bit of mig and ark welding.

As I have grown up I have grown a huge interest in old machines and engineering and would love to be able to buy a set of castings and machine them into a beautifully engineered machine like a steam engine. The only problem is this type of work takes many years of training and experience to develop these skills. So what can I do, can any one help. What type of lathe, and milling machine should I get. Is it possible to home teach myself , can I start on something small and easy to build up my skills. Is there any friendly retired engineers out there with a home works shop that would be willing to pass on their knowledge or let me look over their shoulder and ask questions. I live in the New Forest in Hampshire and would appreciate any help.

Thanks Neil
9 April 2012 at 08:27 #88718
Springbok
Participant
@springbok
First join your local ME club there is a good one in Hampshire (Look up the SMEE web site for your local club)

Second ask the members advice, they will I am sure be more than willing to help and maybe say purchase secondhand British equipment and please if possable get one of them to look it over.

Thirdly you will have to decide what you want to build this will then impact on the machinery you wish to purchase and then how deep is your pocket, also a Loco or a traction engine can take a few years to build. I wish you good luck on whatever you decide to do and please keep us all posted as to your progress. I know. please look at my pics.

Edited By Springbok on 09/04/2012 08:43:27
9 April 2012 at 09:19 #88724
JasonB
Moderator
@jasonb
Well I was self taught apart from metalwork at school, though you may have missed out on that as well. I did a couple of the Stuart stationary engines before the Minnie in my avitar and that was all done on a lathe so you don't have to have a mill but it does make things easier.

You say you want to do 1" or 1 1/2" traction engine, these are fine for looking at and static running but if you want something to pull you about on a rally field then a large 2" is the minimum I would suggest. This will impact on the size of machine you go for so decide on that before buying machines.

I'm not really a club person but if you are then join a club though a lot are more into locos than traction engines. If you are free next weekend pop down to the Basingstoke club as they have a traction engine rally and it will give you a chance to decide on what size will suit you and take it from there.

http://www.basingstoke-dmes.co.uk/Traction_Engine_Rally.htm

J
9 April 2012 at 09:47 #88725
Ady1
Participant
@ady1
It's quite a tough road, especially the first couple of years, and dangerous too

Being obsessed about it at the start helps a lot to get you get going

Lathes can be pretty expensive and it's worthwhile starting out with a cheapo until you get an idea about what you're letting yourself in for.

Machining is: Dirty Dangerous, hard work and highly skilled

You get dirty and dangerous and hard work from day one, highly skilled can take years.

So don't go splurging out a big wodge of cash at the start

Ebay has revolutionised the hobby, making it easy to buy almost anything you will need.

I got a Drummond M series for $115… I was a lucky boy because it's such a good lathe

Then I gradually acquired some knowledge about the machine and different materials and gradually spent 1-2 grand on bits and bobs

You eventually end up with a mini machine shop

It's only after a few months of messing about that you can answer your own question because it's a real chicken and egg scenario

You may eventually gravitate towards tiny stuff, or the big lumpy stuff may do it for you

only you will know

One book to definitely get is Spareys Amateurs lathe, this is the Bible when you start out

GL
9 April 2012 at 09:56 #88729
Ady1
Participant
@ady1
…thats into old bikes cars and steam engines…

So you like doing up old kit

Get an old British lathe and do it up, our forefathers made some amazing stuff and it would be an interesting project too

My own one is neary 70 years old and works fine after I made the effort and acquired a bit of knowledge to master my machine

You've got quite a few to choose from…and you would be helping to save Britains engineering heritage

I would pick a standard 100% manual approx 3.5 inch one with the ability for screwcutting to start with

http://www.lathes.co.uk/

One big advantage of doing the hobby is that eventually you will be able to tackle all sorts of weird jobs where you have to make your own bits, fixing something which would be regarded as a writeoff by other people.

There's a chap on the board asking about acquiring leadscrew nuts today, with a lathe you can simply knock your own ones up before the machine conk out

Edited By Ady1 on 09/04/2012 10:26:18
9 April 2012 at 10:13 #88731
Bill Starling
Participant
@billstarling10428
Dear Neil,

If you can get to London easily at weekends (as I can from Norfolk), the training courses run by SMEE (The Society of Model and Experimental Engineers) are an excellent starting point. See: http://www.sm-ee.co.uk/. for details of the complete beginers' course, the stage two course teaching you how to make a small boiler and oscillating engine and the vital course on how to sharpen lathe tools. They are an amzingly helpful and friendly bunch and I've certainly gained a great deal from them – or perhaps I can now claim from 'us'. It's worth the effort to go back for the talks and other meetings whenever possible too.

Best wishes in your pursuit of this great hobby,

Bill.
9 April 2012 at 10:20 #88732
Wolfie
Participant
@wolfie
I'm pretty new to this hobby too and I have found folk on here and at my local club to be of great assistance.

I started out with one of the little micro lathes, I could actually pick it up and the first part of my Stuart engine was made on that. A year later I have a 3/4 ton Smart and Brown I bought in Newcastle for £400!! I also have a milling machine too. I did try milling on the small lathe but I simply couldn't get enough rigidity.

I also would like to make a traction engine, but I decided to start small. I bought a couple of sets of plans from Stuart Models and I'm close to finishing the first of those. Its been a huge learning curve, but when its finished I hope to make a beam engine with much less mistakes and maybe a bit quicker. I also discovered an interest in toolmaking in its own right along the way.
9 April 2012 at 10:50 #88733
Les Jones 1
Participant
@lesjones1
Hi Neil,

Have a look at the threads where "Wolfie" has asked for help. When asking questions he has always given information about how he was trying to do something and what the problem was. He has also answered questions by from those trying to assist him. This makes it much easier to provide help. I think he is a good example to people requiring assistance. Some years ago someone asked a question like "why can't I get a good finish when turning" He did not provide any more information like material and cutting speeds etc. When he was asked for more information he did not answer all the questions which made it very dificult to diagnode the cause of his problem. You can find "Wolfie's" threads using the Google search box at the top of this forum page.

Les.
9 April 2012 at 14:53 #88773
N Perry
Participant
@nperry28574
Thanks for all your advice I am going to look into a DIY engineering, machining and metal work course at Eastleigh college.

I really would like to build some thing like a 3 inch scale traction engine but thought if I start small it would be a cheaper way to start as i could get a smaller lathe (like a myford ML 7)and major mistakes on castings when machining would not be so costly to buy a new casting. Am I right or wrong in my way of thinking? should I get as big as I can afford (like a Colchester student) and look at more simple projects like- any suggestions?

I would like to build up a whole range of equipment for instance I need to weld a couple of fixing points on to a aluminium oil tank for my 1960s Triton as some one has ground them off, they will then need drilling and tapping. these are some of the other types of jobs I would like to do my self. I guess I would need to buy and learn how to Tig weld or is it possible to do it with a Mig.
9 April 2012 at 15:48 #88775
Jeff Dayman
Participant
@jeffdayman43397
You've had lots of good advice from others about getting started, if you follow some or all of it you will likely learn quickly. Read as much as you can about lathes and milling. Harold Hall's articles and the L.S. Sparey lathe book are great references.

As to welding aluminum, well, that's another story. To properly weld any aluminum requires a LOT of practice and I would recommend using a good TIG welder like a Miller, Lincoln, or ESAB, in AC mode. These are very expensive. A cheapie TIG set will not give best results on aluminum. I repeat, you will need LOTS of practice to weld any aluminum but especially thin aluminum. British motorbike oil tanks are often very thin gauge aluminum and may have variations in wall thickness if old mount points have been removed. This makes welding heat control very tricky. There is also a fire and explosion risk if proper precautions are not taken with closed tanks that have contained oil or fuel. I suggest you do not risk ruining a good tank with amateur welding – take it to a specialist in British bikes or a specialist in aluminum welding. I have welded steel and aluminum for years and there isn't much I wouldn't tackle – but not an aluminum oil tank or gas tank on an old bike. I would not attempt such a job – I'd take it to a pro.

One lower-complexity alternative may be to make an external strap system or cradle to hole the tank rather than welding on lugs. If you use some thin rubber sheet between tank and straps it will reduce the chance of the straps wearing through the tank.

Just my $0.02 – your mileage may vary…

JD
9 April 2012 at 16:14 #88779
JasonB
Moderator
@jasonb
The Eastleigh courses are said to be good and will give you access to larger machines for the odd few parts that need them.

Depending on the actual 3" prototype you could do 90-95% on a Myford size machine or if you go a touch larger like a Warco WM280 then just the flywheel and final drive gear will need a bigger lathe. The 3" Fowler from MJ Engineering how are quite local is a nice engine but quite detailed, I know of at least two people doing this as their first TE and have littel experience of model engineering. A Little Samson in 3" or 4" as its a small 4" would be another option.

If you do want to do 3" plus I would say don't bother with a 1" or 1.5" first as they will take a lot of time, do a couple of stationary engines either from castings or bar stock and then throw yourself straight into the size engine you want.

In addition to the books above I would suggest Edward Georges book on making traction engines and also visit Traction Talk Forum and look through the build diaries in the miniatures section to see what you are likely to encounter.

J
9 April 2012 at 17:22 #88785
magpie
Participant
@magpie
Hi Neil

I would agree with Jeff (above) with regards welding ally. As an ex Rolls Royce coachbuilder i have spent a big part of my life welding ally, and it takes a fair while to learn,but even with the practice i have had over the years, i would NOT weld a fuel tank. I have seen far too many go bang, even when the were thought to be well cleaned out.

Cheers Derek
9 April 2012 at 19:31 #88792
Harold Hall 1
Participant
@haroldhall1
You mention my articles Jeff, thanks, I assume you refer to them as found in the Model Engineers' Workshop magazine. Almost all of them, published over twenty years, are now also to be found on my web site here

This is the home page but there a clear links to the Projects and Processes pages.

My books are also listed on the site here

If you find some time to view the site Neil I do hope there will be something useful there.

Harold Hall
9 April 2012 at 21:03 #88809
Sub Mandrel
Participant
@submandrel
HI Neil,

Just to say you've had a lot of good advice there. Don't jump into a really big project first, unless you have the right mindset you could get bored and frustrated. Start with some small projects and more advanced restoration work first and build up.

For the fuel tank … I assume taht as an experienced welder you know how to make sure it is safe to weld? If so you could try aluminium 'welding' filler rods that you use with an ordinary gass torch.

Neil
10 April 2012 at 14:03 #88859
N Perry
Participant
@nperry28574
Thanks again the ally tank is oil not fuel so still a risk of it going pop I think I will take your advice and get it welded proffessional just because I want it to look neat. I can still drill and tap it myself though.

As far as machining and building steam engines. I have decided to build a stuart steam stationary engine start off with basic and work my way up to something more complex .Once I'm I feel like I have learnt something and understanding the terminology, tools and technics I will haqve a crack at somthing like a 2" Fowler or 3" samson. As for machining equipment I will look along the lines of a good spec Myford ML7 with as much tooling as possible to get me started. would this be a good choice of lathe to carry out work on the above. can anyone advise me on a what mill to go for that would do the majority of work required for the above models weather it be a chinese bench type or old british turret, bearing mind I only have a standard size garage and thin wallet all in i could only afford about £2500 max for lathe and mill
10 April 2012 at 14:22 #88862
JasonB
Moderator
@jasonb
I've just about finished my 2" Fowler, few pic here.

I have an X3 mill and that handled it all with ease, the 3" LS is only a fraction bigger so the mill will do that. The mill will also take care of your drilling needs if you don't have a bench drill already

Lathe wise the gap bed in the Myford will accomodate the 9" dia flywheel and final drive, I did 75% of mine on a 8" swing Emco before changing to a Warco Wm-280VF which could be had for the same sort of price as a well tooled myford or even less depending on exact model. You won't be able to fit the cast rear LS wheels into either lathe so will need to do them elsewhere or go for the built up ones which I think look better anyway, the flywheel may also be a bit tight on the Myford but not sure of exact dia

Do remember that some of your budget will need to go towards tooling for the mill and lathe if you don't get it withing the purchase price.

The other option if you are thinking about that size engine is a 2" Minnie which is just the doubled up 1" drawings, there are not that many castings needed and a lot is just done from barstock so keeps the cost down and it falls just between the Fowler and 3" Ls for size.

J
10 April 2012 at 14:28 #88864
Ian S C
Participant
@iansc
You might get a good Boxford or the like for less than a Myford, and get a bit more lathe for your money. Ian S C
10 April 2012 at 19:38 #88891
Dismaldunc
Participant
@dismaldunc
Hi Neil, Can I also recommend "Wolfies" post he asks the questions that I as a beginner also need the answers to. I read his posts and think " thats a really good point how do you do that?"

Dunc
16 April 2012 at 20:12 #89224
thomas oliver 2
Participant
@thomasoliver2
You should also note that in addition to the machines, you will need a whole host of other equipment like accurate measuring and marking out equipment; screwcutting equipment – probably BA type, milling cutters, number drills, slitting saws. You may have to make things like D-bits, so will have to acquire skills in hardening and tempering and so on It is not just a question of learning machining skills. We all start off with nil in the way of skills and build up gradually, so get started and take it step by step. A book like LBSC's book of the Tich locomotive will describe every step in making every single part of the loco in his inimitable style and these could well be followed for similar models. Some secondhand lathes come pretty bare with only a 3-jaw and a drill chuck. But others can have a whole host of additional accessories and present a much better bargain. Make sure you have an experienced lathe man with you to vet your buy for bed wear and condition. I have had friends who made items 3 or 4 times each at the start until they achieved the desired finish and accuracy, but in the end produced 1st class models in which the took great pride. Subsequent models became easier to build with experience learned. You have one huge advantage that we old codgers never had – the internet. There is a huge amount of photographic set -ups shown in clear detail for the stages of making a lot of popular models. You can find all your answers if you surf around. I have just been looking at Harold Halls website and it covers just about all one could need, and the link is already in his post.
16 April 2012 at 20:37 #89225
merlin
Participant
@merlin98989
After having bought an old worn-out Smart & Brown (still using it) I studied any back numbers of 'Model Engineer' and 'E.I.M.' that I could lay my hands on. I then spent a year or more reading and following the writings of George Thomas, whose attitude I much admired. I made his small drilling machine, radius turning tool and the Versatile Dividing Head, graduating tool, all of which have been very useful. G.H.T's instructions are very helpful.

Join a club as soon as possible.

Good luck.
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