7 equi-spaced holes on a pcd – why?

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7 equi-spaced holes on a pcd – why?

This topic has 29 replies, 14 voices, and was last updated 6 February 2018 at 10:52 by Howard Lewis.

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3 February 2018 at 15:13 #339603
Tony Martyr
Participant
@tonymartyr14488
I'm considering building a Double Tangye as my next project, in spite of a rather awful drawing on which I notice that the cylinder detail calls for 7 holes on the pcds of both ends. 7 holes seems to be deliberately awkward is there a reason for this due to a spacing clash that I've missed?

Tony M
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3 February 2018 at 15:13 #25794
Tony Martyr
Participant
@tonymartyr14488
3 February 2018 at 15:56 #339608
roy entwistle
Participant
@royentwistle24699
Are the equally spaced or is it eight with one missing , possibly over the steam passage in the end of the cylinder ?

Roy ( The drawing would help )

Edited By roy entwistle on 03/02/2018 16:15:26
3 February 2018 at 16:12 #339610
Bazyle
Participant
@bazyle
A bit of googling shows models made with 6 and a full size with 5 thanks to Jo on MEM. Scroll down a bit
3 February 2018 at 16:31 #339611
JasonB
Moderator
@jasonb
The odd number usually means you don't have a stud where the steam passages are, if you used 6 to avoid the same clash then you would have problems with the drain cock positions at the bottom of the cylinder.

8 means having to leave out too many fixings at the crank end of the cylinder where the frame gets in the way as the flanges on the models are usually too thick for having the nuts on the cylinder side which the full size did

Edited By JasonB on 03/02/2018 16:33:51
3 February 2018 at 18:04 #339623
John Purdy
Participant
@johnpurdy78347
Tony

Edgar T. Westbury's Double Tangye model has six studs on the cylinder covers. Detailed in ME Vol. 110 and pictured in Reeves catalog.

John
3 February 2018 at 18:23 #339629
JasonB
Moderator
@jasonb
Westbury's 1954 article has 7 holes, you can clearly see why as I mentioned above they clear the steam passages and drain cocks. reeves also clearly shows 7 holes

Edited By JasonB on 03/02/2018 18:26:40
3 February 2018 at 19:22 #339636
Ian Hewson
Participant
@ianhewson99641
Built my Tangye with seven studs, not a problem, they arise when you fit to the standards at the rear, lol.
3 February 2018 at 19:24 #339637
John Purdy
Participant
@johnpurdy78347
Why I wrote six holes instead of seven I have no idea, it's definitely 7 as Jason says, Sorry about the confusion.

John
3 February 2018 at 19:33 #339639
Ian Hewson
Participant
@ianhewson99641
A couple of pic’s
3 February 2018 at 21:33 #339649
Emgee
Participant
@emgee
Smart looking engine Ian.

Emgee
3 February 2018 at 22:20 #339657
Neil Wyatt
Moderator
@neilwyatt
There are some photos I took of a Vertical Tangye Engine here, very like a Stuart 10V. It has six studs

It's in the Black Country Museum in the room with examples of the products of the different Black Country Towns (ironically is has 'Tangye Birmingham' very prominently on the side of it).

Neil
3 February 2018 at 22:35 #339660
Michael Gilligan
Participant
@michaelgilligan61133
Posted by Neil Wyatt on 03/02/2018 22:20:37:

There are some photos I took of a Vertical Tangye Engine here, very like a Stuart 10V. It has six studs

It's in the Black Country Museum in the room with examples of the products of the different Black Country Towns (ironically is has 'Tangye Birmingham' very prominently on the side of it).

Neil

.

Your irony is rather lost upon me, Neil

(a) the photos show 'Tangyes Birmingham'

(b) that was a trademarked name for 'Tangyes Limited'

MichaelG.

.

https://www.gracesguide.co.uk/File:Im18880106E-Tan.jpg

Edit: Just realised that your irony probably relates to the purist view that Birmingham is outwith the Black Country. … It's past my bedtime, I think.

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 03/02/2018 22:44:27
4 February 2018 at 07:40 #339679
JasonB
Moderator
@jasonb
Just to confuse you more Michael, their factory was called the "Soho Works"

The Engine that Neil shows is quite a small one, as they went up in size the number of studs also increased, this is a 10" x 12" of similar style with 7 studs, you can also see the "thin" flange that allows the cylinder to attach to the standard from above that you don't often get on models due to their out of scale cylinder wall and flange thicknesses.
4 February 2018 at 08:51 #339689
Michael Gilligan
Participant
@michaelgilligan61133
Posted by JasonB on 04/02/2018 07:40:49:

Just to confuse you more Michael, their factory was called the "Soho Works"

.

No problem with that, Jason; I know that Soho is a district of Birmingham

… Allegedly derived from South Handsworth

Last night's nonsense [which I should probably have deleted] was triggered by me thinking that Neil was amused by Tangye/Tangyes on the castings.

MichaelG.
4 February 2018 at 11:01 #339726
Ian S C
Participant
@iansc
When I rebuilt a Stuart Turner S9, the original builder drilled the cylinder head stud holes in the wrong place, they coincided with the steam passages. Just a case of plugging the existing holes and drilling and tapping new ones.

Ian S C

Edited By Ian S C on 04/02/2018 11:05:31
4 February 2018 at 15:52 #339777
Neil Wyatt
Moderator
@neilwyatt
Posted by Michael Gilligan on 03/02/2018 22:35:21:

"purist view that Birmingham is outwith the Black Country."

The purist view is that Wolverhampton isn't in the Black Country! Birmingham certainly never has been

Neil

(Married to brummie with over 20 years working in Birmingham and the Black Country).
4 February 2018 at 16:18 #339780
Michael Gilligan
Participant
@michaelgilligan61133
Posted by Neil Wyatt on 04/02/2018 15:52:19:

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 03/02/2018 22:35:21:

"purist view that Birmingham is outwith the Black Country."

The purist view is that Wolverhampton isn't in the Black Country! Birmingham certainly never has been

Neil

(Married to brummie with over 20 years working in Birmingham and the Black Country).

.

… and Birmingham was once a small settlement near to Aston

MichaelG.

.

[ Born in Winson Green Hospital ]
4 February 2018 at 16:34 #339782
Neil Wyatt
Moderator
@neilwyatt
Posted by Michael Gilligan on 04/02/2018 16:18:28:.

[ Born in Winson Green Hospital ]

Ever come across the Centre of the Earth around the back?

Neil
4 February 2018 at 20:42 #339823
Michael Gilligan
Participant
@michaelgilligan61133
Posted by Neil Wyatt on 04/02/2018 16:34:15:

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 04/02/2018 16:18:28:.

[ Born in Winson Green Hospital ]

Ever come across the Centre of the Earth around the back?

.

'fraid not, Neil … but it looks rather fine !

We left that area when I was about 10 years old, and a few years later moved to Lancaster.

MichaelG.

.

P.S. … back to the Tangye[s] story: Grace's Guide mentions …

"1881 The company was made into a private limited liability company Tangyes Ltd. The company was registered on 31 December, to acquire the businesses of Tangye Brothers, hydraulic engineers, and of Robert Price and Co, malleable ironfounders, of Winson Green, near Birmingham. ^[26] in which Tangyes had an interest. Richard and George Tangye held 19/20ths of the shares^[27]"

That 'Robert Price and Co.' was on Slough Lane, Winson Green

You will not find that on modern maps … it is now Wellington Street.
4 February 2018 at 21:14 #339826
Neil Wyatt
Moderator
@neilwyatt
Posted by Michael Gilligan on 04/02/2018 20:42:08:

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 04/02/2018 16:34:15:

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 04/02/2018 16:18:28:.

[ Born in Winson Green Hospital ]

Ever come across the Centre of the Earth around the back?

.

'fraid not, Neil … but it looks rather fine !

We left that area when I was about 10 years old, and a few years later moved to Lancaster.

MichaelG.

.

P.S. … back to the Tangye[s] story: Grace's Guide mentions …

"1881 The company was made into a private limited liability company Tangyes Ltd. The company was registered on 31 December, to acquire the businesses of Tangye Brothers, hydraulic engineers, and of Robert Price and Co, malleable ironfounders, of Winson Green, near Birmingham. ^[26] in which Tangyes had an interest. Richard and George Tangye held 19/20ths of the shares^[27]"

That 'Robert Price and Co.' was on Slough Lane, Winson Green

You will not find that on modern maps … it is now Wellington Street.

I used to know one of the Tangyes

Neil
4 February 2018 at 21:36 #339827
Michael Gilligan
Participant
@michaelgilligan61133
Posted by Neil Wyatt on 04/02/2018 21:14:59:

I used to know one of the Tangyes

Neil

.

You must be older than you look

MichaelG.

.

… I know, don't bother explaining.

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 04/02/2018 21:38:25
4 February 2018 at 22:02 #339829
Jon
Participant
@jon
Posted by Michael Gilligan on 04/02/2018 16:18:28:

[ Born in Winson Green Hospital ]

So was i and lived in Handsworth to 1969 when there was a Lotus garage, quite posh then. Soho main drag to Hockley flyover.

Though have moved, lived, worked in and out the true Black Country, Brum and Wolvo were never in it. Black Country Museum has examples of products made in surrounding areas, ie Sunbeam, AJS, Clyno and many others see my album just created.
Weird i have a piccy of a van in BCM with Soho Foundry on the side in for renovation. http://www.model-engineer.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/sites/4/images/member_albums/75533/788366.jpg
5 February 2018 at 09:16 #339848
Tony Martyr
Participant
@tonymartyr14488
Thanks to all and particular to JasonB for the inclusion of the part section drawing.

I have a copy of the single Westbury drawing from Reeves which does not show the position of the cylinder drain hole which justifies the unusual flange hole distribution.

The drawing raises a larger point – how will we get the younger generation of engineers to follow in our hobby if these very poor imperial dimensioned drawings are the only design source material? I have spent my life involved with gearing and engines and have built a few models but even to me this drawing of the Double Tangye is more of an initiative test than an aid. I haven't located a copy of the articles that originally aided the construction. My interest in the engine was raised by seeing a unit at the Broomy Hill Engine site in Hereford – I'll go back on the next 'steaming day' and count the bolts.

Tony
5 February 2018 at 13:03 #339876
Another JohnS
Participant
@anotherjohns
Tony, looking at Jasons' pic, 8 holes/studs may fit in really well, and simpler to divide (for those not into CNC).

That's before coffee has kicked in, so draw it out yourself, and see if 8 would do better in your workshop.

John.
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