Corrosive liquids. ……………………………..

[MikeParticipant @mike89748]

And don't forget their "human rights". As far as I am concerned, anyone who is guilty of a crime has given up these rights – and remember that prison is meant to be a very unpleasant experience, not a holiday camp!

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Posted by Mike on 16/07/2017 21:04:29:

– and remember that prison is meant to be a very unpleasant experience, not a holiday camp!

I thought it was supposed to rehabilitate people and make them fit for the time when they return to society so they were no longer a threat to it?

[michael howarth 1Participant @michaelhowarth1]

Posted by Hopper on 17/07/2017 03:18:33:

Posted by Mike on 16/07/2017 21:04:29:

– and remember that prison is meant to be a very unpleasant experience, not a holiday camp!

I thought it was supposed to rehabilitate people and make them fit for the time when they return to society so they were no longer a threat to it?

The concept of rehabilitation is constantly trotted out by well meaning people but as far as I know, no penal authority in the world has ever achieved rehabilitation on any signiificant scale. There have been cases of individuals who have seen the light and not reoffended but this appears to be an individual choice.

Mick

[Nigel McBurney 1Participant @nigelmcburney1]

The government should outsource the prison service and give Russia,China and North Korea the opportunity to quote,and offer a bonus for any that did not come back,that might make the criminal element think

[CirclipParticipant @circlip]

"The government should"

Hmm, Brexit?

Elected representatives of the "People"? So many who translate our thoughts into what they are prepared to action.

Regards Ian

[MikeParticipant @mike89748]

I know I am one of those who has contributed what some consider to be non-politically-correct views to this thread, but may I suggest our moderator calls a halt at this point? We have all had our say, and we have wandered well off the subject. The great thing about our hobby is that it forms a common bond between people of all political views and of all nationalities – and long may that continue.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by mick H on 17/07/2017 06:28:03:

Posted by Hopper on 17/07/2017 03:18:33:

Posted by Mike on 16/07/2017 21:04:29:

– and remember that prison is meant to be a very unpleasant experience, not a holiday camp!

I thought it was supposed to rehabilitate people and make them fit for the time when they return to society so they were no longer a threat to it?

The concept of rehabilitation is constantly trotted out by well meaning people but as far as I know, no penal authority in the world has ever achieved rehabilitation on any signiificant scale. There have been cases of individuals who have seen the light and not reoffended but this appears to be an individual choice.

Mick

Depends on what's meant by 'significant scale'. In the UK (2015) the overall re-offending rate was 25%. Females are least likely to re-offend, Juveniles males are a problem at 38.1%, but the worst rate (41.1%) is in adults released from a custodial sentence. That suggests that custodial sentences create hardened criminals, with the prison serving as a kind of University of Crime where bad boys meet professional criminals, learn new tricks, and are taught to disrespect victims and the law. The worst re-offending rates are associated with our worst prisons (up to 70%).

You are far more likely to go to jail in the US than in the UK. Not only are US prisons tougher than ours, they are overloaded as well. As a result they are dysfunctional by European standards, rough on inmates and staff. Staying in one is thoroughly unpleasant and the deterrent effect should be high.

Do US prisons deter? No. The US re-offending rate is between 65% and 77%, that's more than 30% higher than the UK. The evidence suggests that horrible prison experiences reinforce criminality and they tend to submerge individual choice.

When you look at the detail, it turns out that dealing with anti-social behaviour is complicated. There must be punishment, you have to protect the public, but you also need to break the cycle of bad behaviour. A prison system that fails to reduce repeat offending is a failure.

Not all is well with the UK Prison System. Looking at what is expected of a Prison Officer, Parliament reported (not for the first time) that the Ministry of Justice is unclear about the purpose of prison.

'There is an urgent need for clarity of purpose for the criminal justice system as a whole in order for there to be clarity of purpose for different institutions within it and clarity about how they should relate to each other. Nowhere is this more urgent than in relation to the role of prison.'

It's a complicated problem and by now you may be bored. In which case, the easy answer to crime is Basil Fawlty when his car breaks down.

Dave

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 17/07/2017 10:55:00

[Roderick JenkinsParticipant @roderickjenkins93242]

Nicely argued Dave. I don't suppose a few facts will dissuade the floggers though

Cheers,

Rod

[KWILParticipant @kwil]

Transporting a whole bunch of offenders to Australia obviously worked, many stayed and created the Nation we know today. Would they like some more?

[Jon GibbsParticipant @jongibbs59756]

+1 Dave

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 17/07/2017 10:53:49:

When you look at the detail, it turns out that dealing with anti-social behaviour is complicated. There must be punishment, you have to protect the public, but you also need to break the cycle of bad behaviour. A prison system that fails to reduce repeat offending is a failure.

…but like democracy, to misquote Churchill… Prison is the worst form of punishment, except for all the others.

Jon

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Hardly a post suitable for a ME forum

[Phil H1Participant @philh196021]

Getting back to the subject a moment. I have about a 2 litres of 95% sulphuric acid that I was planning to use on future copper boiler work. Has anybody compared the modern equivalents and found them to be equally as effective? i.e., should I seriously consider diluting my acid and getting rid of it?

Phil H

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Phil H1 on 17/07/2017 13:58:59:

Getting back to the subject a moment. I have about a 2 litres of 95% sulphuric acid that I was planning to use on future copper boiler work. Has anybody compared the modern equivalents and found them to be equally as effective? i.e., should I seriously consider diluting my acid and getting rid of it?

Phil H

The advantages of Sulphuric Acid are that it's cheap, you can adjust the strength, and, above all, it's fast. The alternatives do the same job but they are slow. So Sulphuric Acid every time if you are in a hurry and understand how to manage a corrosive chemical safely. If you're not rushing and don't like the idea of manipulating a dangerous acid, then the alternatives are fine. You just have to wait longer for them to finish the job.

If I had 2L of Sulphuric Acid. I'd use it. Carefully!

Dave

[Phil H1Participant @philh196021]

Thanks Dave. I'll keep it but avoid transporting it anywhere else. And yes, Ill use it carefully.

PhilH

[John McNamaraParticipant @johnmcnamara74883]

Would the moderators please remove the last few pages of this post. It is rapidly descending into the kind of conversation you might hear in a third rate bar near closing time. The thought bursts clearly show a host of tawdry isims and concepts, not suitable for any forum. and way below reasonable discourse.

Regards
John McNamara (Australia)

[CirclipParticipant @circlip]

Sadly, when one perpetrator states that he would attack another gang members women due to them being vain and knife wielding members did their blades in acid to prevent the wound from healing, doesn't bide well for the "Rehabilitation" group.

 And as a point of interest, I have NEVER frequented a third rate bar at closing (or any other) time but do have a sense of justice when confronted by the afore mentioned mind(????)set.

 

Regards Ian.

Edited By Circlip on 18/07/2017 14:13:54

[Nick_GParticipant @nick_g]

Posted by Circlip on 18/07/2017 14:08:57:

 

And as a point of interest, I have NEVER frequented a third rate bar at closing (or any other) time

.

John is from a former penal colony.

Nick

Edited By Nick_G on 18/07/2017 16:36:04

[MikeParticipant @mike89748]

Hello John McNamara. I agree with you entirely. Although I was one of those who introduced the politics of crime and punishment to this thread, two days ago I thought things had gone too far and asked the moderator to close the tread down. This request fell on deaf ears, so I repeat it now. As I said two days ago: "The great thing about our hobby is that it forms a common bond between people of all political views and of all nationalities – and long may that continue."​

[Jon GibbsParticipant @jongibbs59756]

The thread probably belongs in the tearoom but it seemed a pretty civilized exchange of opposing views to me.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

With no posts in the 24hrs prior to both people asking for it to be closed down it would seem to have died a natural death anyway before they brought it back to the top of the latest posts list.

I think that both Neil and myself prefer to see a post slip away quietly rather than get heavy handed and lock things down.

J

Edited By JasonB on 19/07/2017 17:43:26

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