when is a precision vice not a precision vice>?

[nigel jones 5Participant @nigeljones5]

machine vice….just bought one from reputable dealer…looks nice…every single bolt is onlt hand tight…3 thou play in jaws..had to machine it down, now very good…but should we have to????

Edited By fizzy on 24/01/2013 00:33:28

[nigel jones 5Participant @nigeljones5]

[Clive HartlandParticipant @clivehartland94829]

Join the club Fizzy, mine had jaws that were sat on a piece of dirt and had then been ground off and when i cleaned the recess it gave 0.7 level error. I had to machine the holes and counterbore the hard jaws to get enough movement to get it level again. Also the slop in the slide movement was bad, I had to re-machine the keep bars and make sure they were the same both sides.

Clive

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

It seems to depend on the individual company and their quality control

I got a pair of shoes a few years ago which were brill for walking about and so I bought exactly the same pair again at renewal time from the same high street outlet, even the sole looked the same

The good pair were made in China

The second pair had 2 split soles in 6 weeks and were made in India

[David Clark 13Participant @davidclark13]

Hi there

Nothing trading standards will do will make a difference.

I bought a vice from Arc Eurotrade and it was extremely accurate and I was very pleased with it.

If people stopped criticising Chinese machinery and spent 5 times the money on quality tooling they would have no need to complain.

regards David

Edited By David Clark 1 on 24/01/2013 16:55:34

[I.M. OUTAHEREParticipant @i-m-outahere]

I always wondered if a factory had different grades for their products as i have seen quite a few pieces of equipement that looked identical but some had obvious faults . Maybe some suppliers are buying "A"grade and others "B" & "C" etc .

[Gray62Participant @gray62]

I bought a vice some time ago from Warco, the DH1, I bought the Vee jaws with it and have subsequently purchased the Hard and aluminium soft high jaws.

Despite initial problems with delivery of the soft jaws (which Warco advised me of in good time and were related to quality control issues with the manufacture of the first batch of the soft high jaws) I am extremely satisfied with the vice and the accessory jaws.

In fact, for its size it is by far the best vice I have.

I have no affiliation with Warco, just a very satisfied customer ( and very happy with their customer services and after sales support).

regards

Graeme

[David Clark 13Participant @davidclark13]

The moderation is to make sure this topic remains on subject and does not turn into a slagging off of tool suppliers.

Why don't you post constructive comments rather than destructive ones.

Instead of complaining about cheap tools, just buy expensive ones.

If you can't afford expensive ones, post comments on how to upgrade cheap ones or make your own.

regards David

[martin perman 1Participant @martinperman1]

Gentlemen,

The old adage "you pays yer money and yer takes your choice" comes to mind, I agree with David you buy cheap so why complain.

Martin P

[David Clark 13Participant @davidclark13]

Yes, we should help beginners to the hobby.

Complaining about equipment rather than helping them to correct it is not helping.

And, no, I have not had complaints from a supplier.

I just don't want this thread getting out of control.

regards David

[LambtonParticipant @lambton]

As I have said several times on this site always return faulty goods to the supplier explaining what is wrong. They will always replace the item or give you your money back as this is their "quality control" system. It stops customers making a fuss and to be convinced that the supplier is a "good "one for doing it.

Having said that we only get what we pay for so if we buy a cheap Far Eastern import we will not get Abwood or Jones and Shipman quality however the item is described.

It would be nice to have a policy statement from the usual suppliers of Far Eastern tools and equipment. So far only Arc Eurotrade have had the courage to do this. So come on you suppliers you want out business so talk to us!

[I.M. OUTAHEREParticipant @i-m-outahere]

My supplier has a section for returned items and old display stock that is sold off cheap and i usually head there first to see what bargains i can get .

I have picked up a few items like chucks and vises that took less than an hour to fix and cost 1/3 of the retail price .

They simply replace any items returned with a manufacturing fault then chuck it out the back usualy with a tag stating the problem and of course the reduced price .

I have an asian made workshop as buying anything else was just too expensive and even second hand gear would have cost way more than new far eastern made gear .

You can get a decent mill ,lathe and tooling for what they ask for a second hand bridgeport !

As long as you have a close look at what you are buying with an open mind as to what you need , what you would be comfortable with customizing to suit your needs then you can save a large sum of cash .

Things like vises are a real lottery particularily the cheaper machine vises , this is why i purchased a screwless vice and it is excellent.

I have a swivelling machine vice that was supplied with my mill and it needed some work to make it nicer to use but nothing that a few hours of tinkering at leisure didn't fix.

Are we not Model Engineers ?

If so get it on the cheap , make it work and use it !

Ian

[alan smith 6Participant @alansmith6]

JasonB,

I had a look at your aero engine photos, very nice, If you had read my posts on the ill fated milling machine thread then you would have seen that I made a comment that a skilled machinist can turn out accurate work on a worn out machine. A beginner will struggle.

You can look at my photos if you wish, it`s only simple stuff as I`m not much of a machinist but I know what I`m talking about most of the time.

Incidentally, I designed a 0.1 CC diesel engine when I was 13, made some of it but it never got finished. I still have the drawing if you want to make it. I also designed and made most of a lathe at the same age and will finish it soon 60 years later.

Alan

[Sub MandrelParticipant @submandrel]

I have just bought a new Nikon bridge camera.

In the last few days I have taken full frame, pin sharp photos of robins in the snow, HD quality video of fieldfares thrity yards away and today a picture of the moon nearly filling the frame at 16 mega pixels, the mountains and craters clearly visible in relief around the edge of the shadow. You can get >1:1 zoom without any supplementary lenses.

It equals or exceeds the performance of my ancient Pentax SP1000 in every way (I'm comparing with hi-res scanned slides). The build quality appears excellent, it's user friendly, light and a joy to use. The optics (a 13 element zoom with 26:1 range) exceed the quality of the sensor. I can photograph things I can't see because they are too small or too far away.

I got it, ex-display, for £78.

Neil

My point?

Made in China.

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

Even British factories had (have) 'Friday cars', sloppy workers and just errors. Someone has to get these.

I don't know about hardware but complex consumer electronics like TVs have a typical 1% early life failure, with the quality brands stuggling to achieve 0.5%. That means dozens of forum members must have had a duff something or other this month. So we should expect a regular if lower fault rate in our modelling stuff. This is also one reason for not buying a lathe that relies on a speed controller.

[Brian WarwickParticipant @brianwarwick88192]

Hi, I am a newbie’s and no expert on Far East tools BUT I do purchase goods from the Far East and have done so for over twenty years and can assure you all that the Far East is more than capable of very high standards, just like Europe is capable of manufacturing junk.

It’s absolutely nothing to do with where it’s manufactured but the cost the end user is prepared to pay. >>

Don’t blame the manufacturer if you are mis-sold goods or purchase a sub standard product, if you buy goods that do not meet the specification described then its simple RETURN IT.

You have statutory rights and all reputable suppliers will replace faulty good as their business depends upon repeat sale, if you have any doubt about the supplier then pay with a credit card and you will have even more power on your side.

I agree its right to inform fellow enthusiasts of pitfalls but to make general statement like, Far East or Indian manufactured goods are rubbish is totally misleading after all almost all leading brand have goods manufactured there as well.

 

Edited By Brian Warwick on 24/01/2013 22:50:56

[Anonymous]

Posted by SLOTDRILLER on 24/01/2013 20:04:56:

Are we not Model Engineers ?

Errr, actually no, that's I bought an expensive machine vice. I don't have to worry about it being square or parallel, it works straight out of the box and multiple parts can be machined with good repeatability. It will easily outlive me too.

Andrew

[Chris TriceParticipant @christrice43267]

Posted by Stub Mandrel on 24/01/2013 21:44:17:

I have just bought a new Nikon bridge camera.

"SNIP"

I got it, ex-display, for £78.

Neil

My point?

Made in China.

To be fair Stub, that's not like for like comparison. The big manufacturers of electrical goods construct and own the factory and have total control over the quality in the Same way Honda buy car plants over here. In many cases, they fit the factory out with state of the art machinery (because the factories tend to be newer) than the factory machinery in Japan (for example). Only the labour cost is cheaper which is why they go there. They have to produce good quality at a good price because it's such a huge market and very competitive. If there was a similar market for milling vices, the quality might be better but with so much product bought in and rebadged from the same suppliers, where's the competition? The main selling point is price but low price comes with its own costs.

[_Paul_Participant @_paul_]

I bought a real turd of a vice from a "cough" reputable and very large machine tool retailer advertised as a precision vice, what utter rubbish in the end the vendor reduced the price to half the advertised one and it now does service on a drill press for rough work.

It looked like a Kurt Anglock but looking like it was as far as it got…..

Here is a very good site on a vice very similar to the one I bought and how the gent rectified some of it's faults **LINK**

Paul

[_Paul_Participant @_paul_]

I bought a real turd of a vice from a "cough" reputable and very large machine tool retailer advertised as a precision vice, what utter rubbish in the end the vendor reduced the price to half the advertised one and it now does service on a drill press for rough work.

It looked like a Kurt Anglock but looking like it was as far as it got…..

Here is a very good site on a vice very similar to the one I bought and how the gent rectified some of it's faults **LINK**

Paul

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Alan you do seem to be under the impression that all imported machines need a complete rebuild, My lathe was used straight from the crate and the mill just needed one nut & locknut adjusting and has run since then and both have done quite a bit of work, so best not to generalise. Just the occasional adjust ment of gibs and feednuts which would be the same on any machine

As to a skilled machinist, I have no engineering training save for metalwork O level.

If you care to give what you consider acceptable tollerances on a lathe then I'll see if I can dig out the test sheet for my lathe and we can see how they compare. Say run out of spindle socket and a piece of bar protruding 100mm from the chuck.

Still would like to hear whether you feel beginners would want to pay for the addit meeting these tighter specs as we would have to pay someone to quality check the parts with suitable equipment and swallow the cost of any rejects.

J

J

[LambtonParticipant @lambton]

Stub mandrel, with his post about his Nikon camera, makes the very valid point that some excellent equipment is made in China. I am sure however that Nikon exercise rigid Japanese quality control measures over every stage of production. Certain vital components are most likely made in Japan. The first class reputation of the Nikon brand would not allow them to do otherwise.

The manufacturers of hobby market machine tools and equipment cannot afford to exercise Nikon-like QA systems but there is an awful lot of simple things they can do to ensure a totally acceptable product is made.

My late father, an expert tool maker, always impressed on me that it was just as easy to make things right as to make them wrong. His point being that the same amount of effort was need to make the item in either case. He taut me to plan the work properly, fully understand the drawings/ specification, ensure that I had the most appropriate tools etc. available in good condition and to always "measure twice and cut once". He was talking mainly about making one-offs. Model engineering is mainly about making parts in very small quantities.

When making batches of items it is much easier to get things correct by the use of simple jigs and fixtures for production, gauges for checking quality by non-skilled personnel e.g. go-nogo gauges, ensuring the operators understand the basic quality requirement for the product, adequate final inspect etc. etc.

This is all basic stuff that has been known about since Victorian times so why in 2013 do we still have very basic quality issues with manufactured items regardless of which country they are made in?

[JoParticipant @jo]

Much of the Chinese stuff is pretty good these days, the early stuff was suspect (It is like comparing early Japanese motorbikes with the modern ones: they learnt and left us far behind).

I must be honest keep looking at the Little SEIG 1 Mill and thinking "I don't like the quality but as a set of castings to make a decent little mill I couldn't get the raw castings for that money". Throw away a few bits make some quality items. Or would I rather be making model engines?

Jo

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Offered as a point of reference, and nothing more:

Louis Levin & Son, Inc. continues to make high accuracy, high precision, small lathes.

… they are priced accordingly.

MichaelG.

[Roderick JenkinsParticipant @roderickjenkins93242]

Jo's point is very pertinent. In the past if you wanted a new mill the only affordable option was a Dore-Westbury kit to make it yourself. The quality of the resultant machine would be as variable as a far east import. I've made dividing heads, cutter grinders, precision drills, gear cutters etc. etc. I stiil have castings for machine vices which I've never made. The advent of the far east important has given us a choice to make or buy that we never used to have. I've got a s/h Myford super 7 and Sharp mill which I bought new. A friend asked advice recently on getting started in model engineering (he got fed up with keeping TVRs on the road). I sent him straight to Warco who are our local supplier. He set up a workshop for £2000 – about what I paid for the mill 25 odd years ago. The quality of his machines is enormously improved since the economy mill/drill I had before the Sharp – but I still use that old Warco milling vice. Looking around the exhibitions the same goes for Chester and the other importers. Please don't impose standards on the manufacturers that will make their products unaffordable – leave us with the choice.

cheers

Rod

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