old lathe no makers marks

[Terry MorpheyParticipant @terrymorphey64370]

Picked this old lathe up yesterday no makers marks or anything at all on the lathe it has got Picador England on the countershaft but the fixing of the to together looks home made so i dont know if originally they would have been a pair, fitted with a 5 inch chuck and a 4 jaw 6 inch came with it runs silent and sweet, was told it had been removed from a RollsRoyce factory when it closed a faw years back and been stored since, looks like it should of had legs or feet and something is missing from the headstock side any ideas please

Edited By JasonB on 30/06/2022 07:39:27

[Terry MorpheyParticipant @terrymorphey64370]

anybody know what make this is

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

The Picador unit was a standard commercial item, so possibly a ‘Red Herring’ in your search.

Lathe headstock [almost certainly] was a flat-belt design, with substantial pulleys, and I presume from the thrust-bearing arrangement it is of great age.

Sorry … that only gives you a couple of pointers, and is not an identification.

Happy Hunting !

MichaelG.

.

P.S. __ some more-detailed photos of that headstock might help … it looks like it originally had a backgear

 

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 30/06/2022 07:55:35

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

Certainly a hotchpotch of curious bits

The headstock has no spindle bore and is missing a lot of parts and for some reason the rack extends the full length of the bed

What remains looks like good quality gear but a lot is missing

Here's a start in your headstock quest, but not that bed

hmm

Edited By Ady1 on 30/06/2022 08:17:52

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

That outrigger thrust bearing arrangement on the end of the headstock spindle is very turn of the century looking. Tailstock looks to be fabbed and welded from steel channel and bar at a much later date. V belts and counter shaft obviously a later addition too. Rack length is very odd. Has the bed been cut down from original length? And no sign of a leadscrew or brackets for it.

The shape of the bed is almost like a gap-bed lathe that has had the gap cut off it and the headstock moved along to the main part of the bed, which would explain the location of the rack.

If it came from Rolls Royce it might have been Henry's original lathe. Certainly has had a chequered career of some sort by the look of it.

Edited By Hopper on 30/06/2022 08:18:08

Edited By Hopper on 30/06/2022 08:21:57

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

There are a few more photos in Terry's album.

Looks like the tailstock is a welded fabrication

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Possibly a turn-of-the-century Milnes that has had the gap bed cut down and headstock moved along on to the main part of the bed. LINK

Has very similar distinctive crank handle for carriage rack traverse and the large disc cross slide handle.See the pics of the greenish lathe further down the linked page.

Edited By Hopper on 30/06/2022 08:39:18

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Ady1 on 30/06/2022 08:03:42:

.

Here's a start in your headstock quest …

.

Good find, Ady

MichaelG.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Looking more closely at that bed, I think it probably had an integral pedestal at the headstock end … and somebody salvaged the useful and compact part.

MichaelG.

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

Posted by Hopper on 30/06/2022 08:31:09:

has had the gap bed cut down

Now I would NEVER have guessed that but it does look like its been sawed off lol

[Terry MorpheyParticipant @terrymorphey64370]

Thanks guys the links are very interesting for sure looking at the bed there is some weld marks i will see if i can get a good picture and a closer headstock pics

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

That simple dividing arrangement could prove very useful, Terry

**LINK**

https://www.model-engineer.co.uk/albums/member_photo.asp?a=57206&p=909473

MichaelG.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Bet there's many a good story in that machine's past!

My guess is someone talented with access to a workshop and no money got hold of an elderly worn out machine and made a useful plain lathe out of it.

The bed has been sawn off and the missing feet suggest it was originally part of a larger casting. Two reasons for sawing off:

• the need to fit physically into a home workshop, perhaps reducing both size and weight, and/or,
• to remove the worn part of the bed. (A great deal of lathe work is done with the saddle sliding to and fro immediately in front of the chuck. That slowly wears a dip in the bed that eventually makes the lathe unusable, even though the rest of the machine is OK. Bed can be reground a few times, but such machines are usually scrapped.)

I think someone has sawn off the end of the original lathe and moved the headstock to avoid the damaged area. Looks like they had to make a tailstock and adapt other parts as well. Lots of changes, and probably parts from more than one machine. Missing bits too: the original may have been a screw-cutting lathe with gears on the end of the headstock and a lead-screw: possibly this was all too difficult to refit after shortening the bed, or maybe the owner didn't need screw-cutting.

Result: a working plain lathe. Acid test, 'does it cut metal?' As it's lasted this long, I expect it does! Has it been tested yet?

Dave

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 30/06/2022 10:13:15:

That simple dividing arrangement could prove very useful, Terry

**LINK**

https://www.model-engineer.co.uk/albums/member_photo.asp?a=57206&p=909473

MichaelG.T

That's interesting. Well spotted. I wondered what that disc was for. Seems to be a permanent fixture.

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Posted by Ady1 on 30/06/2022 09:01:37:

Posted by Hopper on 30/06/2022 08:31:09:

has had the gap bed cut down

Now I would NEVER have guessed that but it does look like its been sawed off lol

It's the only reason I can think of that the rack goes all the way to the end of the bed. In fact it doesn't — the end of the bed has been brought to the rack! If you look at the below Milnes bed, if you cut it in a vertical line from the end of the rack, and then in a horizontal line just at the bottom of the leadscrew, you would have pretty much the same shape as in the OP.

And you can see the V weld right there on the OP pics, so maybe the bed had been smashed up and salvaged? It happens. A mate of mine just bought for $50 at the scrapyard a Hercus clone of a South Bend (ala Boxford) that had been dumped off the back of a truck at the scrappie's and the bed snapped right about the same place. He bought it to salvage the headstock and other bits. But he could do this and cut the bed down and use it as a very stumpy lathe.

The above pic too shows the weird crank handle on the carriage and equally unusual big disc on the cross slide handle. Note the black horn and brass handles on the crank and cross slide etc look identical to Drummond M-Type. Wonder if they came from the same supplier?

Yes I'll bet there's many a good story that old machine could tell as Dave says. Quite possibly starting as early as 1890 so a long and multi-faceted career!

Edited By Hopper on 30/06/2022 10:46:37

[Terry MorpheyParticipant @terrymorphey64370]

Hi guys here's some more pictures in the album close up this one shows the weld i think by the looks everybodys right the bed has signs of welding at the gap part of the bed that was still lease the bed at just over 4ft tho, yes it cuts nice, the 2 locking rings at end need to be replaced does anybody know where i can lay my hands on two..

[Terry MorpheyParticipant @terrymorphey64370]

thats it thats the one right there just put up picture of the welding

Posted by Hopper on 30/06/2022 10:44:50:

Posted by Ady1 on 30/06/2022 09:01:37:

Posted by Hopper on 30/06/2022 08:31:09:

has had the gap bed cut down

Now I would NEVER have guessed that but it does look like its been sawed off lol

It's the only reason I can think of that the rack goes all the way to the end of the bed. In fact it doesn't — the end of the bed has been brought to the rack! If you look at the below Milnes bed, if you cut it in a vertical line from the end of the rack, and then in a horizontal line just at the bottom of the leadscrew, you would have pretty much the same shape as in the OP.

And you can see the V weld right there on the OP pics, so maybe the bed had been smashed up and salvaged? It happens. A mate of mine just bought for $50 at the scrapyard a Hercus clone of a South Bend (ala Boxford) that had been dumped off the back of a truck at the scrappie's and the bed snapped right about the same place. He bought it to salvage the headstock and other bits. But he could do this and cut the bed down and use it as a very stumpy lathe.

The above pic too shows the weird crank handle on the carriage and equally unusual big disc on the cross slide handle. Note the black horn and brass handles on the crank and cross slide etc look identical to Drummond M-Type. Wonder if they came from the same supplier?

Yes I'll bet there's many a good story that old machine could tell as Dave says. Quite possibly starting as early as 1890 so a long and multi-faceted career!

Edited By Hopper on 30/06/2022 10:46:37

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

You've actually had it cutting? Good work!

Which locking rings do you need? ON the end of the spindle? No idea where you would get Milnes parts that old. YOu might have to make them.

What is the centre height of your lathe, from the bed to the centre of the chuck? It looks like it could be the bigger brother of the 3.5" lathe in the pic I posted. Four foot bed after cutting down sounds pretty long for a 3.5" lathe.

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

If it came from a Rolls Royce factory, it was a long time ago.

The colour is not quite right for an Aero Division factory

The whole machine has the signs of having been salvaged from a damaged / derelict machine..

Certainly looks as if the bed has been shortened both longitudinally and horizontally, and the Tailstock, as already pointed out looks to have been fabricated.

In my view, definitely a "home brew" , based on a very old lathe, but probably by someone who knew what they were about.

Maybe it was scrapped from R-R because of serious damage and brought back to life afterwards

Howard

[egaParticipant @ega]

It looks as though this is what the Americans might call a "Frankenlathe"!

[Terry MorpheyParticipant @terrymorphey64370]

Hopper, think i will have to make some locking rings i have to get myself a 2 1/2 inch lump of round bar and set to it. The centre height is 5 inch centre of the chuck to the top of the bed.

Howard Lewis, the colour under whats in the pictures looks like it was navy blue and black under that or that might be the actual casting colour, the tailstock looks pretty neat really smooth auto pushes the bits out when wound in.

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Most lathes were painted black in that era, so that may be the original paint.

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

If it came from a R-R Aero Division factory, it would probably be painted a light powder blue.

The machines at the Oil Engine Division at Sentinel Works, Shrewsbury,, were the normal industrial green. A lot of their lathes were Edgwicks or Sentinel Swifts made under licence

In the Training School, the lathes were painted grey, including the old Wards and Edgwicks, as well as the new big Dean Smith and Grace and Herbert Preoptive.

So I am sceptical that it started life ina R-R factory.

But in view of what has been done to it since it first came out of the packing case; who knows?

Howard

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

It would have fit right in at the original turn-of-the-century Rolls Royce factory. Somewhere up the rear left-hand corner somewhere. Maybe if you squint you could see it?

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